# The U.S. has fallen into shadow -- it is time for the world to move on **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2018, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753 "2018-06-26T04:02:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/21 "2018-06-26T14:12:27Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The circumcision thing may appear inconsequential but believe me, it’s just the \*\*tip \*\*of the…er, iceberg. Are we still doing “phrasing”? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/22 "2018-06-26T14:22:42Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The circumcision thing may appear inconsequential but believe me, it’s just the tip of the…er, iceberg. Remember to give the mohel a tip! ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/23 "2018-06-26T14:28:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not exactly. Many _mohalim_ are rabbis, to be sure. But many are doctors, some are cantors, and some are simply observant Jews trained in the specific _brit milah_ procedure. > > That said, I agree that the implications of this particular name choice are not positive. Thank you for the correction and fighting my ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/24 "2018-06-26T15:26:40Z")
Whoa, the soccer hooligans are stepping up their game. I applaud the recognizance that the US is not an imperial power. It’s about time. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/25 "2018-06-26T16:04:14Z")
Does anyone else remember the SNL fake ad in which they say the 1978 Royal Deluxe II has a ride so smooth that a rabbi is shown doing a circumcision at 40 mph? On a bumpy road? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/26 "2018-06-26T16:16:23Z")
> [@Rabbi\_Mohel\_Skinberg](#): > > _ **I told you so.** _ > – me > > **China have overtaken the U.S. militarily and economically –** > _No war with China could be won; much less, decisively – rendering any of the all but diminished, so-called “military superiority” (that has been long sloganeered by the trillion-tax-payer-dollars per annum thieving M.I.C.), at best, anachronistic; at worst, nihilistic. B.R.I.C., BNR etc., are the horsemen of the U.S. economy’s apocalypse – itself nullifying any possible pew-pew out of insolvency that the Yosemite yanks might consider as a last recourse_ > > **Russia have furthered their ‘Eurasia’ bent to the point _fait accompli_ –** > _Putin’s cozying-up to Xi has created an ‘axis’ that can no longer be broken up by any U.S.-Zionist capitalistic ideological force. The Russians are well familiar with the machinations of the U.S. and have become exceedingly good at countering them; while China have watched and learnt with Confucian-esque cogitation. Thus, the old tricks of the past will no longer work on these two adversaries; as Amerimutts are nothing if not stubborn, old dogs._ > > **The U.S. is abrogating its responsibilities as a beacon of democracy _et al._ –** > _Be it abdication from U.N. Human Rights Council, just as the U.S. cages children and laughs off Israeli Zionists’ genocidal gesticulations, or the fomentation of internecine trade wars with generational allies – the isolationism of the U.S. has made itself a pariah state. This, only 18-months after the Trumpian overthrow – which, in the context of how hamstrung the canard-crooner-in-cheeseburger was for the best part of his initial 12-month squat over the Shite House (due to his own surprise at underestimating the abject degree of Amerimutt voter idiocy), is a historically “unpresidented” rollicking rate of withdrawal and, indeed, decline._ > > **The U.S. is a tribal, riven society, that is still split by in pre “Civil War” era schisms –** > _The Koreas are arguably closer to peace, than the notional Mason-Dixon Line is from being erased. If it’s not the denial of the true motivations for the U.S. Civil War ( **spoiler:** tariff robbery of the economically thriving, agricultural South, by the economic basket case, industrial North), then it’s the approaching crescendo of the racially divisive din that has deaved the nation to anything approaching common sense–harking back to the [circa] Trans-Atlantic slave era._ > > **Europe powers (namely: Germany) are stepping up to fill the capacious sofa imprint left by the lurching departure of the corpulent U.S. –** > _The U.S. take a contrary and oft backwards stance on so many global tropes – global warming; universal basic income; Iran; Israel – that virtually any E.U. member looks like a more auspicious choice for the [free] world to march behind, than the corrupt whip hand we have been welt riddled by since the desinence of World War II._ > > **The U.S. is following a flowchart course towards imperial oblivion, and seems utterly (albeit, unsurprisingly – given its abundance of ill- and under-educated, reality and junk food f̶e̶d̶ poisoned populace) blind to its path to oblivion –** > \*R̶o̶m̶e̶ (U.S.A.); N̶e̶r̶o̶ (“Trump™”); d̶e̶c̶a̶d̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ (capitalism); p̶a̶n̶e̶m̶ (“great again”); c̶i̶r̶c̶e̶n̶s̶e̶s̶ (democracy); f̶i̶r̶e̶ (debt); V̶i̶s̶i̶g̶o̶t̶h̶s̶ (China; Russia); “C̶h̶r̶i̶s̶t̶o̶s̶” (Pence; evangelicals); J̶e̶w̶s̶ (Zionists); n̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶a̶l̶ a̶n̶t̶h̶e̶m̶ (lute fiddling); and… \* > > \*\*\*There is a moral of all human tales. > 'Tis but a rehearsal of the past. > > First Freedom, then Glory – and when that fails, > Wealth, vice, corruption – barbarism at last¹. > > And History, with all Her volumes vast, > Hath but one page.\*\*\* > (Canto IV) > > _[¹ The U.S. is currently about **here**]_ > As such, I think the rational, prudent world should have started prepping for a post-U.S. hegemony world, perhaps a decade or more ago. Those still banking on the 'mutts to do the right thing, after having tried everything else, are about to have their hot hand fallacy folded for them more abruptly than “G.F.C.” suckers had their mortgages default – losing not only their houses in the process, but their children’s futures too. > > I tried to warn the plebe masses for years… But all anyone with good intensions ever got in return for their efforts was the _RAR! RAR!_ echo chamber cacophony of jingoistic, jello-brained chimp chatter. Well, here we are now, on the precipice of the care-taker _ad hoc_ empire’s humiliating or (from a certain point of view) hilarious collapse, and I think I am finally entailed to a meagre, self-congratulatory _ **'I told you so** _’… 🆒 But just about everything on your list is wrong, so it’s kind of easy to see why folks laughed at you in the past. China hasn’t overtaken the US either economically or militarily, no matter what metrics you use…hell, even if you use the obviously laughable CCP economic data that even they don’t trust they haven’t overtaken the US. The second point is, well, just full of muddy waters and horseshit so moving on. The third point is only meaningful if you use dual standards, which you are obviously good with…I mean, shall we compare the US record to China and Russia, the countries mentioned in the first two points? Yeah, didn’t think so. I will concede a kernel of truth to this one…the US certainly has been doing a piss poor job on this score under the Orange Haired One, and it’s something we should do better at. As to the next point, the US is tribal…and so are most other countries. This isn’t unique to the US, nor is it anything new. Just a basic understanding of history…hell, even the history whoever wrote this idiotic screed you are using put in…shows that the US has been more divided in the past than today. As to the next one, I figured this must be a joke…the European powers, especially Germany is stepping up to fill the US’s shoes (or I guess our place on the couch)? Really? I’d be fascinated to see the evidence for this. And the last one is back to just horseshit. At any rate, thanks for your thoughts. Definitely worth the laugh. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/27 "2018-06-26T17:41:55Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Does anyone else remember the SNL fake ad in which they say the 1978 Royal Deluxe II has a ride so smooth that a rabbi is shown doing a circumcision at 40 mph? On a bumpy road? Of course. Now, did they ever mash that up with the fish preparation device? _Introducing the all new Prepucemaster[sup]TM[/sup]!_ ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/28 "2018-06-26T17:52:59Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Does anyone else remember the SNL fake ad in which they say the 1978 Royal Deluxe II has a ride so smooth that a rabbi is shown doing a circumcision at 40 mph? On a bumpy road? The joke about a guy looking for a clockmaker to repair his watch. He sees a business with watches in the window. He goes inside and asks the guy if he can repair his watch. “No, I’m a mohl.” “Why do you have watches in your window?” “What else would you think I could put in my window?” ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/29 "2018-06-26T19:18:34Z")
So he’s not coming back? Shucks. I just wanted to talk to him. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/30 "2018-06-26T19:21:46Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > FTR a mohel is a rabbi who performs circumcisions. Mohel Skinberg? :dubious: "Never buy _gribnes_ from a _mohel_…so **chewy."** ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/31 "2018-06-26T19:35:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Oh sure - the US is crashing into oblivion, Germany is poised to re-invade the rest of Europe, Putin and the Chinese are going to dominate the world, civil war is breaking out in the US, _ **Car 54, Where Arrrree Youuuu?** _ (Sorry, **Shodan** , couldn’t resist…) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/32 "2018-06-28T04:09:10Z")
Welcome the Straight Dope Message Board, **Rabbi Mohel Skinberg**! Kind of a pretentious introduction you gave yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/33 "2018-06-28T05:42:07Z")
Definitely something has changed WRT the United states’ role in the world and its own self-image. It pre-dates Trump: the US global hegemony was eroding, and part of the trump phenomenon is kickback against that. A kickback that has actually greatly sped up the erosion, as the US loses soft power and economic ties. However, almost everything the OP said was wrong. It’s not a great start to claim that the US military has been eclipsed when the US still outspends the next top 10 countries combined (IIRC). And the US economy is still doing well. I don’t think it will last, especially with increasing isolationist movements, but the US is right now an economic juggernaut and that’s not going to change overnight. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/34 "2018-06-28T10:13:31Z")
The OP is what happens when Hodge meets Podge. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/35 "2018-06-28T14:14:18Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Definitely something has changed WRT the United states’ role in the world and its own self-image. > > It pre-dates Trump: the US global hegemony was eroding, and part of the trump phenomenon is kickback against that. A kickback that has actually greatly sped up the erosion, as the US loses soft power and economic ties. > > However, almost everything the OP said was wrong. It’s not a great start to claim that the US military has been eclipsed when the US still outspends the next top 10 countries combined (IIRC). > > And the US economy is still doing well. I don’t think it will last, especially with increasing isolationist movements, but the US is right now an economic juggernaut and that’s not going to change overnight. I don’t think the ‘trump phenomenon’ is about pushing back against an eroding US global hegemony status…the exact opposite. Trump doesn’t want the US to be the world hegemon, so he’s deliberately causing it to erode quicker. The reason is Trump feels the US gets taken advantage of…we get less good deals (in his opinion) because a lot of times we are more interested in the secondary or tertiary benefits that accrue to us, such as soft power or basing rights or any number of non-fiscal benefits. He doesn’t understand US power and sees everything in terms of a zero sum win/lose game of profit. He feels a lot of the multilateral agreements the US is in are unfair and aren’t beneficial to the US, feels that the various military alliances we have are outdated and unnecessary, and has a very simplistic (childish really) view of international trade, manufacturing and jobs. There are a lot of real things to criticize the US over today…the OP just happened to pick all of the ones that are pretty easy to counter. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/36 "2018-06-28T14:18:39Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Remember to give the mohel a tip! I’m pretty sure the tip is already automatically deducted. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/37 "2018-06-28T14:49:40Z")
> [@](#): > > The U.S. has fallen into shadow – it is time for the world to move on Like sands through the hourglass, these are the days of our lives. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/38 "2018-06-28T15:32:38Z")
When Olórin of the Maiar fell into shadow, he was returned to Middle Earth by Eru Ilúvatar restored and renewed, clothed in white, again tasked to promote light and mercy in the world. The metaphor is…imperfect. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/39 "2018-06-28T15:58:23Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Does anyone else remember the SNL fake ad in which they say the 1978 Royal Deluxe II has a ride so smooth that a rabbi is shown doing a circumcision at 40 mph? On a bumpy road? “Poi-fect”. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753/40 "2018-06-28T17:07:37Z")
> [@Rabbi\_Mohel\_Skinberg](#): > > **Russia have furthered their ‘Eurasia’ bent to the point _fait accompli_ –** > \*Putin’s cozying-up to Xi has created an ‘axis’ that can no longer be broken up by any U.S.-Zionist capitalistic ideological force. \* U.S. -Zionist capitalistic ideological force? What the what? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-u-s-has-fallen-into-shadow-it-is-time-for-the-world-to-move-on/816753.md?page=3)