# The Ugly American (when he's eating) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 6, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164 "2014-06-06T00:43:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164/81 "2014-06-11T18:49:16Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > Just to clarify (and if you are European, feel free to correct me): > > Europeans hold the fork in their left hands only when it’s used in conjunction with a knife. If they’re eating mashed potatoes, peas, pasta, etc, they hold the fork in the right hand just as we do. > > Assuming they’re righties. > … > [@EllisDee](#): > > You seem to be implying that they switch styles during a single meal. As in, take a few bites of meat using the European style, then put down the knife and switch the fork to the right hand to have a few bites of mashed potatoes. > > Everything in this thread seems to indicate that’s not the case, and that they never switch the fork between hands during a single meal. I think what **Cayuga** is saying is that if non-US people are eating a meal that consists of no cutting, like a plate of pasta, for example, then they will hold the fork in the right hand. This is true. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164/82 "2014-06-11T18:54:44Z")
> [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](#): > > **Roderick** , yes, you’re quite right that we should distinguish between “competitive eating” as a sort of metaphorical description and competitive eating as an actual event (which happens to be popular in Japan). Maybe the portion sizes Americans often tackle make it seem as if they’re in a competition, but I’m sure that’s rarely their actual intention. > > The part about making your food unbearably spicy as a kind of macho thing does strike me as peculiarly American though. I could be wrong, but I have not seen this elsewhere. It’s not particularly an American thing. I think you are seeing it on TV (usually shows like Man verse Food I expect, or something similar), but it’s not something that I’ve seen happen very often (mostly in bars when folks are drinking a lot). And I’ve seen it in other countries, especially in Asia, though in Europe too. To me, it’s more a (young) guy thing more than an American thing to try and eat food that is too spicy to prove something (or just to have your friends laugh at you). ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164/83 "2014-06-11T19:22:33Z")
> [@toast\_pakora](#): > > IMO, the fast-eating thing is from school cafeteria lunches. In high school, I had 20 minutes from the time the “before lunch” class ended and until I had to be at the “after lunch” class. That included going to my locker and standing in line with my food tray. I blame basic training - 10 -15 mins for breakfast, lunch and a luxurious 20 for supper - that included getting your tray, food served, eating and racking your trays and dirty dishes after (with 40 coursemates). We would line up, get our food and line up to rack, eating in line. We were lucky if we didn’t accidentally inhale the fork and knife. It took months back home before I could eat at a normal speed again. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164/84 "2014-06-11T19:40:14Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I think what **Cayuga** is saying is that if non-US people are eating a meal that consists of no cutting, like a plate of pasta, for example, then they will hold the fork in the right hand. This is true. In my German experience that is common in casual situations like everyday meals at home, but even in just slightly formal settings like a normal restaurant it would look bad. If you are eating Italian pasta, preferably in an Italian restaurant, then you can invoke the exoctic cuisine defense and Fräulein Manners will grudgingly let that slide. ---
**Author:** ![Cayuga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Cayuga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cayuga)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164/85 "2014-06-12T17:18:36Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > You seem to be implying that they switch styles during a single meal. As in, take a few bites of meat using the European style, then put down the knife and switch the fork to the right hand to have a few bites of mashed potatoes. That is what I’m implying, and what I’ve observed. > [@](#): > > Everything in this thread seems to indicate that’s not the case, and that they never switch the fork between hands during a single meal. Yeah, but most of the posts here seemed to be (on my quick read-through yesterday) by Americans. I was trying to correct that mistaken impression. > [@Leaffan](#): > > I think what **Cayuga** is saying is that if non-US people are eating a meal that consists of no cutting, like a plate of pasta, for example, then they will hold the fork in the right hand. This is true. I meant that, too. Hey, if I’m mistaken, feel free to correct me. > [@kellner](#): > > In my German experience that is common in casual situations like everyday meals at home, but even in just slightly formal settings like a normal restaurant it would look bad. > > If you are eating Italian pasta, preferably in an Italian restaurant, then you can invoke the exoctic cuisine defense and Fräulein Manners will grudgingly let that slide. Like that. Are you saying that when using a fork and no knife to eat, say, a salmon filet, a right-handed German would use his left hand? Interesting. Still waiting to hear from representatives of France and Italy before I put the dunce cap on, though. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164/86 "2014-06-13T10:31:38Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > What the lady is the video was demonstrating was cutting off a piece of meat, then sliding some potato or other vegetable onto the back of the fork over the cut-off piece of meat. I generally prefer to have just one foodstuff in my mouth at a time, but I’ve seen lots of other people do this. What, using the knife as a FOOD PUSHER? I’m pretty sure my Miss Manners etiquette manual forbids food pushers of any type. And THAT’S the story of why Americans can’t really get our heads around the concept that tines down is the default “polite” orientation for a fork… ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164/87 "2014-06-13T16:27:46Z")
I was taught the switch-instruments-between-every-bite method as a kid, and I always thought it was dumb. I used to cut several bites at once, but I was told that was impolite too. Oh and you never turn your fork upside-down – also improper. As a teen, I decided to switch to a semi-Euro method. I still don’t feel right turning the fork upside-down, so I keep it in the typical American position, but basically I eat with my fork in my left hand whenever cutting is required. Much easier than constant switching, and still looks perfectly polite. My dad, on the other hand, is a lefty but was taught eating with your left hand was improper, so he was forced to eat like a righty. I always thought he’d be better off switching to lefty, but he insisted he was taught righty and he’d stick with it. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164/88 "2014-06-13T16:39:27Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > …And THAT’S the story of why Americans can’t really get our heads around the concept that tines down is the default “polite” orientation for a fork… barbarians. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164/89 "2014-06-13T17:16:46Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > Are you saying that when using a fork and no knife to eat, say, a salmon filet, a right-handed German would use his left hand? Interesting. In the “proper” version they use a fork in their left hand and a possibly mostly useless knife in their right. (Fish utensils if you want serious formality.) Casually people may skip the knife and use only a fork in one hand, probably their dominant one. Btw, there are many, many people who use the “proper” version consistently even if their are eating in their underpants in front of the TV. That’s just what you would teach a child as the default way to use utensils, nothing inherently fancy. In more casual situations nobody cares that much one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Cayuga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Cayuga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cayuga)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164/90 "2014-06-13T19:08:24Z")
Good to know. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164/91 "2014-06-14T00:44:45Z")
I’m an American left-hander, but my mother has been in many places and owned restaurants and she was a stickler for table manners. Plus I’ve been in various places and asked about table/dining etiquette. So I’ll add commentary and info for various contributions above **American vs. Euro silverware handling** For centuries, the basic prohibition was to avoid the barbaric habit of resting the pommel of the knife on the table in a fist. Doing so appears to be a threat to the host or other guests. To this end, a polite diner would actually hold his knife as little as possible, cutting whatever needed to be cut, setting the knife down, then occupying that right hand (as most people were right-handed) with the fork that was putting food into the mouth. This reduced the chances of some guest stabbing someone during the meal (yeah, I know, unless he was good with his left hand and grabbed the knife that was set down by the guest on his left). Meanwhile, the fork evolved from the straight-tined version (still often used as a serving instrument) to a curved version. The tines are to be pointed downward, toward the plate, so they do not appear to be threatening anyone (like knife prohibitions, above) and one balances small portions of small foods on the convex side, rather than shoveling fungible foods in with the concave side like a glutton. A proper curve also added strength to the rigidity of the tines (now this is more often done metallurgically and through other geometries) and made the fork particularly useful in stabilizing a piece of meat when the knife was being used to cut it, as one can now apply pressure with the index finger to the top of the curve in order to apply pressure with the ends of the tines. [Note that typical chopstick-oriented foods are usually served in portions that require no cutting, though it is certainly possible to cut (in a manner of speaking) with chopsticks.] Cutting with a fork was impolite; lacking an edge, it requires more force and could risk up-ending a table (see Elbows, below) and, besides, that’s what knives\* were for. This is the dining culture that Europeans brought to The Colonies from their homes in Europe. In the Early 1800’s the British (and much of the rest of Europe) adopted a modification of the (admittedly clumsy) dining etiquette: It was okay to retain the knife in the right hand, so long as one did not appear to be threatening anyone with it. This meant either resting it on the food (typically near the place one planned to cut next), resting it on the edge of the plate (not on the table; that would put food bits and sauces and stuff on the table) without pointing it at anyone, or using it to help stabilize food on the convex side of the fork. While retaining the knife in the right (more dexterous and therefore less likely to slip and accidentally stab someone) hand one would carefully and daintily set food into the mouth with the fork. But this change in dining conventions came when the United States was at war (again) with Britain. The former colonists and their descendants therefore rejected the change and “proper” table manners in the United States have remained unchanged ever since, even though the two nations quickly forged alliances and mutual commerce after signing treaties in 1815. **No elbows on the table.** This was a prudent rule back when tables were just big boards laid on top of sawhorses, It was less a matter of “don’t put your elbows on” as “don’t lean your weight on” the table because, once you’ve got your elbows on a surface its quite natural to start leaning your weight on those elbows.~ The problem is that since you’re on the edge of the board and it’s not necessarily screwed down on the legs/supports, resting your weight on the table can make the table flip – the supports act as a fulcrum and you’re pushing down on the end of a lever, thereby causing the servingware, silverware, and everyone else’s plates to fly or come sliding toward you and wasting a good meal for want of the strength or courtesy to hold yourself up at the table. **Slurping and Burping – two sides of the same coin** East Asian soups, noodle broths, and teas+ are served especially hot. Slurping forces room-temperature air to be drawn in with the liquid, thereby cooling it – hopefully before the tongue and gums and palates get scalded – and turned into an expression of approval of the flavor and a compliment to the host, server, and/or chef. Of course, since slurping pulls air in with the liquid, it’s not uncommon for that air to go all the way down to the stomach. Eventually, it needs to be belched out. Belching was therefore also considered a compliment to the host/chef (in Asia). In Europe, slurping and belching were considered indicators that one was consuming too quickly, either because the diner was visiting more for the food and less for interaction with the host (“forgive me if I eat and run…”), was somehow competing to consume more than others, or was unwilling to share. The Christian prohibition against the vice of gluttony served to make such rapid consumption unconscionable and therefore the indicators (belching and slurping) were also considered rude. \*\* Public Consumption of Food\*\* My friend in Japan pointed out an ice cream shop that had opened near her high school. She noted that it was vary popular when it opened and all the kids would stand around outside the shop while eating their soft-serve cones – which caused quite a scandal. I asked why Japanese people were never seen consuming food on the street, and she explained that the tradition went back to WWII when it was considered insensitive to eat food in front of someone who might have nothing to eat. I could speculate that people in the United States are so obsessed with their individualism and prosperity that they don’t have the slightest concern for sensitivity toward others, particularly those too poor to eat. However, that’s more of a cynical opinion than a researched observation. Besides, I’m not sure my friend’s WWII explanation was something told to her or if _don’t eat in public_ goes farther back into Japan’s culture and history. In any case, it seems to me that, with automobile culture encompassing the nation after Henry started mass-producing them, eating food in the car via drive-in car-hops and later drive-through windows of restaurants would have obviated any cultural proscription we in the USA had against eating in public. That, of course, doesn’t address the culture of eating in public when on-foot. Perhaps our nation’s entanglement with capitalism and consumerism fosters a culture of blatant public consumption of our abundant food. Okay, yeah, that’s cynical too. Somebody else got ideas? –G! \*In fact, prior to the widespread use of forks, the common practice (now associated with barbarians and warrior-types) was to cut with the knife, spear with the knife-point, and either bit from the speared piece or use the knife-point to stuff the food into the mouth. A variant was to cut with the knife, pinch the preferred portion between thumb-pad and the side of the knife, and bring the morsel to the lips, pointing the thumb at the teeth while consuming the bit of food. ~This is also why you don’t slouch at the table; slouching leads to setting the elbows on the table which leads to leaning on the table which leads to dumping everyone’s food which leads to fat dogs eating stuff that’s not good for their digestive systems which… +When I dined at a Moroccan restaurant, the after-dinner tea was served in a fascinating manner: The waiter held the tray of teacups at waist level, then raised the teapot as high as he could above his head, tipping the pot so that the tea flowed from the spout and landed perfectly in the tea cup. He’d watch the teacup and stop before it overflowed, then reposition his hands and pour the next cup. We asked why he did that (and suggested he get a ladder) and he explained that, while the water must be extremely hot to get the tasty oils out of the infusion, it was too hot to drink. Letting the tea fall through four feet of air made it cool down better than just pouring it from a couple inches above the cup. Plus it made a good show for customers. He never spilled a drop. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164/92 "2014-06-14T01:04:48Z")
OK, I haven’t read the thread; but I did read the first bit about switching hands. My method is to hold the knife in my right hand, and the fork in my left hand. I cut the food, spear it with the fork, and insert it into my gob. Switching hands is inefficient. Two things bother me when I see them in eating places: People chewing with their mouths open (and often talking while they’re chewing with their mouths open), and people holding their forks in their fists. The first is gross, and the second is just weird. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164/93 "2014-06-14T02:22:52Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > My mother taught me the alternate fork-and-knife juggling thing…and I rebelled against it the moment I left home. I invented the European-style fork-and-knife practice independently. It was much the same for me. The first time I saw the fork-switching method being demonstrated, my first thought was “that’s stupid.” I immediately rejected it and just kept my fork in my right hand all the time. As a result, a lot of people think I’m left-handed, because I use my knife in my left hand. > [@cher3](#): > > The one that bugs me is eating and/or drinking while shopping. I mean actually in the store, not taking a break at the mall. Really, you and your kid can get through a trip to Target without a snack. (There’s also the issue of people making sure their child has something to eat or drink at every waking moment, but that’s another topic.) I think a lot of the snacking-on-the-go thing is the result of life in America really being time-squeezed. A lot of that is the result of long working hours and long commutes. Even without kids, I hardly have time do keep up with everything. We eat about a quarter of our meals in the car or on the go. I hate it and it’s uncomfortable but it’s the only way to cope with things. My wife, who immigrated from India a decade ago, constantly remarks how difficult and stressful life in America is. We have to do so much without assistance, so we have to combine things. Eating often gets combined with everything else, whether it’s working at our desks, riding in cars, walking around shopping, etc. I don’t have children, but I have observed that small children demand an enormous amount of attention and time. When people could afford having one spouse stay at home, you wouldn’t see all these children snacking in public. > [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Another thing that I’ve had remarked upon is the idea of drinking a beverage - particularly water - during a meal. I went out to dinner with some students visiting from Korea, and they asked me why everyone in the US drinks water while eating. In India they aren’t disgusted by it, but they think it’s weird and bad for your health. Personally, I can’t handle more than one or two bites of food without interspersing it with water or some other fluid. > [@Shakes](#): > > Where do you guys live that people think it strange that you eat European style? These days no one seems to notice. But when I was growing up and eating with family or friends of family, someone would invariable comment, usually asking, “are you left-handed?” > [@EllisDee](#): > > If your meal combines something you cut, like say steak, with something you don’t cut, like say mashed potatoes, what do you do with your knife while eating the mashed potatoes? And how do you hold your fork? My understanding is that the European-style involves holding the fork “upside-down”, the reverse of how you’d hold a spoon. So do you turn it over and scoop the potatoes with your left hand? > [@Shakes](#): > > When eating the mashed potatoes, the knife gets put down and the fork or spoon goes to the right hand. I have also seen it done another way, with the tines of the fork still pointing down and the mashed potatoes pushed onto the _back_ of the fork with the knife and the knife used to stabilize the whole thing as it’s brought up to the mouth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ugly-american-when-hes-eating/690164.md?page=4)