# The UK (and Europe's) free speech problem **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [July 21, 2025, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153 "2025-07-21T16:10:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/201 "2025-09-07T15:27:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Only the pro-Israeli posters here do that - as you well know. Of course, such a thing would be against the rules even in the Pit, and I’ve never seen any pro-Israel poster wish death on BanquetBear or any other pro Palestine poster. I _have_ seen posters wish for things that would immediately lead to the death of every Israeli, including people calling for Israel to be nuked. But there’s enough of a fig leaf of not talking about a specific poster that they’re fine by board rules. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/202 "2025-09-07T16:27:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Of course, such a thing would be against the rules even in the Pit, and I’ve never seen any pro-Israel poster wish death on BanquetBear or any other pro Palestine poster. Joking about exploding pagers killing him is very much wishing for his death, IMO. > [@Babale](#): > > people calling for Israel to be nuked Never seen BB do that. Can’t really say I recall seeing any regular poster do that, in fact. Got a cite? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/203 "2025-09-07T16:32:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > people calling for Israel to be nuked > > Never seen BB do that. Can’t really say I recall seeing any regular poster do that, in fact. Got a cite? I can’t remember seeing this on the SDMB, either. I have sometimes said that i suspect the only way to end the conflicts in Israel is if the whole thing is turned into a glassy radioactive plain, but that’s like my saying i believe the US is racing towards fascism. I think both are clearly and obviously terrible outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/204 "2025-09-07T16:53:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Joking about exploding pagers killing him is very much wishing for his death, IMO. That’s a huge stretch. Joking that BanquetBear is so closely parroting Hamas and Hezbollah propaganda that he may have had a pager from Iran giving him instructions is very obviously not wishing for his death. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/205 "2025-09-07T17:00:58Z")
That was not the form of the joke in question as you well know. When someone is absent from posting and the joke is made that they must have gotten blown up in the Mossad terror attack, that’s just wishing for their death IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/206 "2025-09-07T17:29:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That was not the form of the joke in question as you well know. That’s precisely the form the joke took, and _you_ know _that_. Unless you think I actually thought that Hezbollah sent a pager to a random poster on a nearly dead message board in order to coordinate propaganda with him. > [@MrDibble](#): > > When someone is absent from posting and the joke is made that they must have gotten blown up in the Mossad terror attack I’m not aware of any Mossad terror attacks. Are you referring to the surgically precise strike on Hezbollah members? > [@MrDibble](#): > > that’s just wishing for their death IMO. If I was wishing for their death, I would have, you know, said _something_ about how that would be a desirable thing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/207 "2025-09-07T18:56:29Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s precisely the form the joke took, and _you_ know _that_. [No mention in the “joke”](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2098) of any of that nuance you’re now inserting. > [@Babale](#): > > Unless you think I actually thought that Hezbollah sent a pager to a random poster on a nearly dead message board in order to coordinate propaganda with him. No, I don’t think anyone _actually_ thought he had a pager. That’s irrelevant to the wishing death bit. > [@Babale](#): > > Mossad terror attacks […] surgically precise strike Potato, _hasbara_. I’ll just note that 12 civilians out of 42 killed, including 2 children, is on par for the level of “surgical” we can expect from Israel. > [@Babale](#): > > If I was wishing for their death, I would have, you know, said _something_ about how that would be a desirable thing. I’m pretty sure you’re well aware of where the lines are, even in the Pit. And Bear’s pronouns are he/him, FYI. I just checked, so too late to correct myself, but for the future. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/208 "2025-09-07T19:39:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, I don’t think anyone _actually_ thought he had a pager. That’s irrelevant to the wishing death bit. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m pretty sure you’re well aware of where the lines are, even in the Pit. Gotcha, so you admit I didn’t actually wish death on them, in that thread or anywhere else; thanks for clarifying. Obviously, I did not think that BanquetBear has a Hezbollah pager; and if I _did_ really think that he or anyone else was that intimately connected to Hezbollah, I wouldn’t wish _death_ on them, I’d wish the _SIB_ on them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/209 "2025-09-07T19:47:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Gotcha, so you admit I didn’t actually wish death on them, No, I made no such admission. Do you not know what the word irrelevant actually means? “Wishing death on someone” and “wishing death on someone in a manner the mods agree is actionable” are two different things. > [@Babale](#): > > I wouldn’t wish _death_ on them, I’d wish the _SIB_ on them. That’s effectively the same thing. Or lingering torture at best. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/210 "2025-09-07T19:50:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s effectively the same thing. Or lingering torture at best. New Zealand’s Security Intelligence Service (my bad, not Bureau) is that brutal? 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/211 "2025-09-07T19:57:54Z")
Well, silly me for thinking you meant the ISA. _Whyever_ would I think that? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/212 "2025-09-07T20:12:49Z")
No idea - it’s a lot more letters away. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/213 "2025-09-07T20:26:48Z")
In Latin letters, not _that_ far from **S** hin **B** et. Yes, I _know_ the Sh is one letter in Hebrew. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/214 "2025-09-07T20:56:04Z")
Gotcha. It was nothing that exciting - I looked up New Zealand’s intelligence service and what I quickly (but no quickly enough) realized was an incorrect AI blurb at the top of the page called it the Security Intelligence Bureau. In the AI’s defence, it might have been saying that this is what someone initially wanted to call it before calling it a Service instead. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2025, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/215 "2025-09-07T21:40:10Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t understand your point. Those social consequences were also speech. Are you saying you favor “freedom of speech except you can’t call out horrible opinions or wrong facts”? Most people won’t call out wrong facts and bad policies if they fear their reputation will be trashed, they could lose their job, lose friends, lose funding, suffer rape and death threats, etc etc. Even the few people willing and able to brave the above will mostly be put off by the bigger threat of being arrested, or deported. In order to have free speech in practice, there has to be enough support in a society for people to disagree with the mainstream (or with those in influential positions) even on important and sensitive issues. Enough people have to believe in tolerating these different perspectives, rather than using “consequences” to enforce conformity with the beliefs and values of the majority. But toleration is a dirty word these days. No sooner did we agree (partially and spottily) that people who had a slightly different religion from us, or no religion at all, might still be good people, than we decided that people with slightly different political views must be bad people who want to harm others. Sometimes I wonder if we were simply in a transitional period, where the influence of religion was waning, and identification with political ideology growing in its place for many people. Maybe tolerance really is impossible, because if you truly believe in your values, you will necessarily want to impose them on other people? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2025, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/216 "2025-09-08T00:00:43Z")
Latest development in the Palestine Action Saga: 83 year old woman arrested for holding sign: > **[Priest, 83, arrested at Palestine Action rally – on day it was banned](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9vrjkev802o)** > > Reverend Sue Parfitt, 83, was arrested after attending a demonstration in support of a banned protest group. And while the police are busy arresting pensioners for speech crimes: > **[Two-fifths of mobile phone thefts in Europe happen in UK, shows insurance data](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jul/26/mobile-phone-theft-europe-uk-police)** > > Analysis shows phone theft claims in UK have risen by 425% since 2021 with 42% occurring in London > **[Shoplifting hits record high in England and Wales](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq8z8kdd8zvo)** > > Retailers say theft is "spiralling out of control", with an increase in organised crime hitting stores. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/217 "2025-09-10T18:48:17Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > I approve this message (but, yes, the Guardian preaches to the converted) This misses the key point. Yes of course Farage is a hypocritical shit stain. And yet with the help of the media\* he seems to be likely end up as PM in the next couple of election cycles. Do you really think he is so principled and honorable that he will not whine about free speech when he’s in opposition only to use those exact laws he’s complaining about to send his opponents to prison when he’s PM? ‘\*’ - the Gruniad included. The UK press have learned nothing from the rise of Trump. Farage is the leader of a minor fringe political party, yet he know he just needs to say something outrageous and he’ll be on the front page of every newspaper. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/218 "2025-09-10T18:54:45Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s also one reason free speech is about culture and attitudes more than laws This patently untrue. The state using its monopoly on violence to [suppress opinions it doesn’t like](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8rvly00440o) is objectively far more agregious than people choosing not to hang out with you because you have offensive opinions. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2025, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/219 "2025-09-11T12:26:26Z")
I agree with that. I wish the UK and other European countries would create a first amendment like the US (but what modern government is going to limit its powers in that fashion?) But culture and attitudes underpin laws. If some critical mass of citizens do not buy into a law, it will be changed, or go unenforced. If few enough care about a right, then the government can trample it with impunity. One reason the US constitution and bill of rights has been so powerful is the reverance in which Americans hold it. It’s not seen as some bureaucratic document for lawyers to argue over, but as part of the founding principles of the nation. I don’t think many other places can say the same. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2025, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/220 "2025-09-11T13:04:20Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s not seen as some bureaucratic document for lawyers to argue over, but as part of the founding principles of the nation. Actually, speaking as an American, it’s both. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153.md?page=12)