# The UK must apologize to Argentina for the Falklands? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2003, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526 "2003-12-07T07:04:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/121 "2003-12-10T11:30:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by everton \* > **So is Manhattan to be given back to the Indians?** Pshaw. NO! Clearly, all of New York needs to be returned to the rightful owner: the country today known as the _Koninkrijk der Nederlanden_. The city can then be properly addressed as _Nieuw Amsterdam_ again. Yeesh, learn some history. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/122 "2003-12-10T11:39:39Z")
Not to the Indians, but to Old Dirty Bastard. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/123 "2003-12-10T11:44:55Z")
Quiet, you. Or we’ll ship a Protestant King across the channel again. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/124 "2003-12-10T11:46:35Z")
Yup, and while we’re at it, lets give The Netherlands back to Spain, and Spain back to the Romans. And I think Denmark would like to get Britain back please, if you don’t mind. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/125 "2003-12-10T11:50:41Z")
Spain? Romans?? The Batavians will gladly reclaim the Netherlands, thankyouverymuch. Romans, me arse. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/126 "2003-12-10T12:22:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zapper \* > \*\*But England had no rights (to my knowledge) over them. \*\* Aside from owning the damn things, that is. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/127 "2003-12-10T13:06:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zapper \* > \*\ ***WinstonSmith** , **Mighty\_Girl** : I’m sorry, I should have realized that the phrase could be misunderstood. What I’m tying to say is that I believe that the geographical location and the Spain heritage are valid arguments, and seems logical to me they should belong to Argentina. Chile, Uruguay or Brasil could be arguable. But England had no rights (to my knowledge) over them. They attempted to invade the continent and did so with the Falklands, and though that’s the way the world goes (or went… or goes? ;)) it’s not logical to me, I don’t think it’s the way it should be. Of course, I’m biased for being Argentinean (mostly, for being product of Argentinean culture), but I believe I would think the same if not. > > Now, at the present day, Malvinas can’t be part of my country. It is simply full of British :), they don’t want to be part of Argentina. And I even think that Kirchner would have a tough time if the UK suddenly gave the islands. So no, I don’t want that now, and I don’t think that will be plausible in any near future. > > Argentina has allowed Uruguay (“la Banda Oriental”) to split and become a different country, has shared Tierra del Fuego (I don’t remember the name of the entire peninsula) half and half with Chile, but Falklands/Malvinas are a sore that reminds of invasions, colonialism and slavery. I’m sorry for being so dramatic, but the Queen has wreak havoc in these lands (not only my country). And if you don’t like my whinery (does this word exist? :s), I’m not forcing you to read this. > > Since I started reading all these differents points of view of the war, in the SDMB, I have wander how much of this ‘exclusion zone’ is true. I even started thinking it could be just an Argentinean argument. \*\* The British claim pre-dates the Spanish claim and you surely must recognize that the argument ‘it’s near us’ is an extremely poor argument for sovereignity. Also I think you have a few odd ideas about Britain’s role in South America, the only mainland colony there was British Guiana. During the Napleonic wars Britian did launch an attempted invasion of Spainish territory in South America (including Buenos Aires), under the pretext that occupied Spain was offically an ally of Napelon, however these invasions failed (note that these invasions took place during 1806 and was not launched from the Falklands as Britain had been forced to leave the islands by this time). After the failed invasion Britian changed it’s tatics and supported South American revolutionaries instead. Britian after this time no longer took an interest in direct imperial control over South America, but it did play a contiuned role in South American affairs particularly in Argentina where it owned commercial interests and it invested heavily in Argentina making it the most affluent and Europeanized country in South America. Argentina and Britian contiuned to enjoy close relations until about the mid-20th century. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/128 "2003-12-10T15:17:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WinstonSmith \* > **Yup, and while we’re at it, lets give The Netherlands back to Spain** Naw, we have 'nuff problems with folks wanting to break away from inside Spain as it is. OTOH, as a gesture of goodwill, we’d be happy to nationalize RVN, Rafael van der Vaart and Jap Stam. Do that, and we promise to give our former colony credit after finally winning the WC. 😃 * * * > [@](#): > > **The British claim pre-dates the Spanish claim** As I mentioned before, it all depends on your source. Papal Bulls will tell you otherwise. Moreover, it is hard to dispute that it _was_ under Spanish jurisdiction at the time of Argentine independence. Having said that, I am also of the mind that the island natives should have the right of self-determination. That’s really all that should matter presently. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/129 "2003-12-10T15:27:15Z")
Pfff. After last night, you can have Van der Vaart. Good luck to Celta after Christmas, too. Losing to ancient Belgians. Dammit. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/130 "2003-12-10T15:52:32Z")
At the risk of increasing your ire, Depor’s just hours away from putting PSV out of their misery too. Never said it was our _clubs_ that needed help. Although Celta’s much obliged to yesterday’s particular rendition of Milan. _::::flees in glee::::_ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/131 "2003-12-11T01:24:02Z")
Not so fast, junior: [woohoo!](http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/champions_league/results/default.stm) Although the fact that I’m cheering for PSV is telling in itself. 🙂 Of course, it’ll only land them an UEFA Cup spot. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/132 "2003-12-11T02:05:49Z")
Not to break up the fun, but… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > > Having said that, I am also of the mind that the island natives should have the right of self-determination. That’s really all that should matter presently. **RedFury** : I know this is hedging on IMHO territory, but how far do you think their self-determination should go? Do you reckon the natives would prefer the aegis of Argentina, their own independence or somewhere in between? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/133 "2003-12-11T07:12:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by everton \* > \*\*I do remember that. Very good. Wasn’t the town actually in Wales? > > I’d go for “Argentinians” myself, but Word’s spellcheck insists it’s “Argentineans”. \*\* I’m a bit behind here (I’ve only just seen the thread) but there is a chapter about this episode in Michael Moore and Kathleen Glynn’s “Adventures in a TV Nation”. Apparently the town was Maerdy in Wales. [Multimap](http://www.multimap.com/map/places.cgi?quicksearch=maerdy&client=public&advanced=) shows four different Maerdies in Wales, but the book doesn’t mention which one it was. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/134 "2003-12-11T14:45:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > Not to break up the fun, but… **RedFury** : I know this is hedging on IMHO territory, but how far do you think their self-determination should go? Do you reckon the natives would prefer the aegis of Argentina, their own independence or somewhere in between? Why ask **RedFury** when [the UN committee meeting you cited](http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2003/gacol3087.p2.doc.htm) contains this? > [@](#): > > MIKE SUMMERS, Legislative Councillor, Falkland Islands Government, said his country was not a colony. His Government had been fully aware of the option of free association and had knowingly followed that path. The Falkland Islands had a modern constitution and an excellent working relationship with the United Kingdom. For some years, Falkland Islanders had run their own affairs through a democratically elected government, with the exceptions of foreign affairs and defence, which were taken care of by the United Kingdom. > > Through its failure to respect the terms of the United Nations Charter on the right to self-determination, Argentina sought to frustrate self-government in the Falkland Islands, he said. The civil service in the Falkland Islands was free of corruption and acted only on the advice of the Executive Council, whose voting members were all elected members of the Legislative Council. His Government did not have senior officials appointed by the United Kingdom Government to determine policy or run its affairs. > > He said that, while there was not movement in the Falkland Islands for independence, it closely guarded its right to determine its own affairs. The Argentine claim to the Falklands was baseless because it relied solely on the dubious bases of history and territorial integrity. The so-called occupation of the Falklands probably never happened, and if it did, was very short lived. In any event, the so-called occupation was over 160 years ago. It was both a practical and political impossibility to roll back history 160 years and expect to find happy solutions. The doctrine of territorial integrity relied on the myth of occupation. Self-determination for the people of the Falkland Islands must be the guiding principle for the United Kingdom, Argentina and the Committee. The people of the Falkland Islands did not wish to change from British administration to an Argentine administration. > > With a new Government in Argentina, there was an opportunity for Argentina to demonstrate a new political maturity on the world stage, he said. The Committee should support his Government. In future years, no resolution on the Falkland Islands should be brought which did not note the right to self-determination of all peoples. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/135 "2003-12-12T00:15:05Z")
**everton** : I’m not sure I’m following you. 😕 I had already obtained Mike Summers’ opinion, as it was written in the report. I wanted **RedFury** ’s opinion. Further, I like the way he writes – I think he might be able to redeem this thread with a little prose on the Malvinas. What’s it to you anyway? 🙂 > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > > **Not to break up the fun, but… RedFury: I know this is hedging on IMHO territory, but how far do you think their self-determination should go? Do you reckon the natives would prefer the aegis of Argentina, their own independence or somewhere in between?** ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/136 "2003-12-12T00:49:34Z")
**Mr. B** all the ‘natives’ are descendants of British settlers and are also UK citizens (though they don’t have the right to reside in the UK), if you want to find a place in the world were the Argentinians are most disliked, go to the Falkland Isles. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/137 "2003-12-12T01:10:13Z")
Granted. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/138 "2003-12-12T10:56:34Z")
Far be it from me to discourage **RedFury** from contributing to this thread; obviously he can say what he likes. But irrespective of his ability to entertain you with his prose there is no point in asking him (or anyone else) to speculate about what the Falkland Islanders _might_ want when we already know perfectly well what they _do_ want. This thread doesn’t need to be “redeemed”. There’s nothing wrong with the thread with one notable exception. If you wanted to correct a factual error in the OP you could have done that straight away instead of feeding us a lot of bullshit about “international impact” of nukes being “dismissed” and then rambling on about rumours, conspiracy theorists, “British activists” and the precise definition of _a word you made up_. You evidently think you’re being very amusing here. Why don’t you find somewhere else to masturbate? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/139 "2003-12-12T12:17:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by everton \* > \*\*You evidently think you’re being very amusing here. Why don’t you find somewhere else to masturbate? \*\* Steady now, Everton, stay civil or he might stop talking to you as well. I can tell you it’s absolutely gutting, when he does that. Oh by the way, Mr B, any chance you could break your injured silence for a minute and quote those “anti-american insults”? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/140 "2003-12-12T18:50:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by everton \* > > Far be it from me to discourage **RedFury** from contributing to this thread; obviously he can say what he likes. But irrespective of his ability to entertain you with his prose there is no point in asking him (or anyone else) to speculate about what the Falkland Islanders _might_ want when we already know perfectly well what they _do_ want. 😕 Right, so I’m not permitted to ask for **RedFury** ’s opinion. Got it. Please provide a cite showing a recent poll of the Falklands’ inhabitants. Barring that, how about “man on the street”-type interviews of the population? I’m only asking because you’ve said _we_ know what they think. Please do not speak for me. I do not know what they think, that’s why I asked. > [@](#): > > This thread doesn’t need to be “redeemed”. There’s nothing wrong with the thread with one notable exception. There was a serious problem in the OP. I attempted to fix a factual error and was met with resistance and _ad hominem_ attacks. > [@](#): > > If you wanted to correct a factual error in the OP you could have done that straight away instead of feeding us a lot of bullshit about “international impact” of nukes being “dismissed” and then rambling on about rumours, conspiracy theorists, “British activists” and the precise definition of _a word you made up_. See above. **Also, I haven’t fabricated a single thing in this thread, with the exception of an inordinate amount of patience for personal attacks.** > [@](#): > > You evidently think you’re being very amusing here. Why don’t you find somewhere else to masturbate? That’s a rotten accusation. **You have proven your inability to invalidate any of my arguments, and now you’re becoming increasingly hostile.** Further, this is a public forum. I’ve paid my membership fee, just like you. * * * I have provided the following syntheses: [list=1][li]For more than 20 years, there has been widespread public knowledge that Britain deployed nuclear armaments in the Falklands War.[_]Argentina’s President Nestor Kirchner has forced the British government to make the unprecedented admission that nuclear weapons were deployed during the Falklands War.[_]President Kirchner has made a mockery of the British government’s foreign policy.[\*]The “apology demand” has been spun by the British government in order to distract the British public. [/li] _Number Four_ is the most powerful of the bunch – perhaps the crux of the argument – because it’s made some people angry enough to display a total lack of objectivity on the subject.[/list=1] In light of this, I think my earlier question bears repeating. **So it comes to this: to whom is the greatest spin directed? The Argentines or the British? Is this really about a demand for an apology, or just a way to raise British hackles?** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526.md?page=8)