# The UK must apologize to Argentina for the Falklands? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2003, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526 "2003-12-07T07:04:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/161 "2003-12-13T16:07:17Z")
I have talked extensively about the topic of self-determination in past threads. There is a lot of ignorance and/or demagoguery on this topic. People who are part of a country do not enjoy and have never enjoyed the absolute, unlimited, right to self-determination. Never. The English as a whole may, if they wish, take into account the feelings of the Falklanders when they decide what to do about the future of the Falklands but the Falklanders have no special right to claim sole jurisdiction over that territory. If the UK would decide tomorrow to sell the falklands to South Africa the Falklanders would continue to be UK citizens but have no legal right to stop the transfer. When HongKong was returned to China each person retained their citizenship but they had not legal way of preventing the UK from returning HKG to China. Citizenship gives a person a share in the common national interest, not a soverreign right over his piece of real estate. The Falklanders, like the people of Hong Kong or Gibraltar, have the same ritght to sovereignty and self determination as I have in my home: none. Other than that, the issue of the Falklands is a complex issue where I am sure both sides have good reasons and where you can open the history book in different pages and find arguments to support either side. My take on it is that civilized nations should not attempt to change the statu quo by force and if and when they do they should not complain when they take a beating. That applies equally to the Falklands, Taiwan, Gibraltar, Iraq, etc. The demand by the Argentinean government for an apology from the british government is laughable and pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/162 "2003-12-13T19:21:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Michael Ellis \* > > How about you anwser the point raised by the OP you thundering imbecile? Oh yeah, right. Sorry to attempt to clear up yet another factual error, further promulgated by the OP. I tell you, the rampant ignorance in this thread has made my eyes roll so far back I can actually taste vitreous humor. **Ellis** , over time, I’ve sincerely come to value your opinion; your _me too!_ reply has sent me, chastened, down the road to reform. I’ll therefore return to Pro Forma:[ul] **Mr. B** , you are an American. What the sodding hell gives you the right to comment on British affairs? _Twat_. President Nestor Kirchner is a cockeyed poncy git. Stupid bastard, he couldn’t negotiate his way through a crowded pub if he were suffering from a pissing bladderful of Stone’s screw-cap ginger wine. Cunty Kirchner wants a bloody apology, what-what? Right Beezer, that one. _Twat_.[/ul] \ ---
**Author:** ![keithnmick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90db22/32.png) [@keithnmick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keithnmick)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/163 "2003-12-13T19:45:49Z")
What are you gibbering on about Mr. B??? You’re looking worse and worse the more I read. In regards to the OP - I remember the Falklands War, albeit somewhat dimly - I was a 10 year old back then. An English boy living in Santiago, Chile - I actually had a layover in Buenos Aires airpot with my family during the war, on a SAS flight. If I recall correctly the initial departure of the British fleet was done rapidly and for maximum effect - I remember it being seen as a political gamble in the hopes that the immediate deployment of a large number of ships would be a ggod show of force and make the Argentines reconsider their reason to grab the little islands. In the end, of course, the bluff failed. But it would have lessened the impact of said bluff if the fleet had been dispatched over time - with a 36 hour delay for certain ships. TV pictures wouldn’t have had as much impact. Perhaps this is why the decision was made to remove the nukes in question once the ships were underway. I’m sure residents of the south of England would rather they did that anyway, instead of rushing the job in port. ---
**Author:** ![keithnmick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90db22/32.png) [@keithnmick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keithnmick)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/164 "2003-12-13T19:47:14Z")
Note - SAS flight - Scandinavian Air Service - not the Special one, no boyhood advetures of that magnitude. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/165 "2003-12-13T20:16:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Estilicon \* > \*\* I thought till this threat that there was nothing worst than an “ugly american”… I was wrong an “ugly english” is ten times worst. \*\* Maybe they removed the nukes to free up cargo space for those severed heads the Ghurkas brought back. (this American boy will not allow an “ugly-gap” to exist!) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/166 "2003-12-14T06:18:02Z")
**keithnmick** : I don’t know you at all, but I’m sorry for your confusion. I suppose the Morrissey/Argentinian Zamba reference _was_ too arcane. \ > [@](#): > > In the end, of course, the bluff failed. But it would have lessened the impact of said bluff if the fleet had been dispatched over time - with a 36 hour delay for certain ships. Your recollection is: the fleet was deployed in a hurry, in order to “bluff” and force a quicker resolution to the conflict. Interesting. Do you recall much about the mood in Buenos Aires at the time? In America, we were told the Argentines were very angry. Along the same lines, was there any talk of nuclear war? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/167 "2003-12-14T08:34:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > \*\*I’ll therefore return to Pro Forma:[list] **Mr. B** , you are an American. What the sodding hell gives you the right to comment on British affairs? _Twat_. \*\* Nice strawman. Care to quote anyone who’s said an american, or indeed any other nationality, isn’t free to comment on this? ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/168 "2003-12-14T13:49:39Z")
Ok answering the Op. I believe the UK owes Argentina and apology and an explanation. First of all for years Argentina has been denouncing that the UK brought atomic weapons to the south atlantic and that maybe some of the ships we sunk were loaded with that kind of armament. The british denied it, or else answer with silence. Now 21 years later we find out that those suspicions were true. The war is long over, why hiding that information? Second, regarding the explanation, as our Defense Minister, José Pampuro said, the british finally “confessed” the information about atomic weapons… but they are not saying which ships were carrying them. I think that we have the right to know, every single detail, after all we are going to be the ones affected by any problem with those weapons, if there are any in the bottom of the sea, we… not England, after all they are thousands of kms away. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/169 "2003-12-14T13:54:36Z")
All this thread is showing so far is that **Mr. B** is a thundering idiot, utterly incapable of rational debate. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/170 "2003-12-14T15:28:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Estilicon \* > \*\* > I think that we have the right to know, every single detail, after all we are going to be the ones affected by any problem with those weapons, if there are any in the bottom of the sea, we… not England, after all they are thousands of kms away. \*\* The simple answer is, perhaps the Argentinian authorities should have thought of all that before they invaded The Falklands. It is really quite simple. The Argentinians invaded, thus the British were within their rights to defend their territory with whatever they had. Aggressors have no no right to complain about the opposition’s weaponry. Again I say it, the Argentinians should be thanking the British for not using their far superior weaponry against them. You never know, if they had perhaps there would have been far fewer British casualities. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/171 "2003-12-14T16:26:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Estilicon \* > **First of all for years Argentina has been denouncing that the UK brought atomic weapons to the south atlantic and that maybe some of the ships we sunk were loaded with that kind of armament. The british denied it, or else answer with silence. Now 21 years later we find out that those suspicions were true.** "In fact, the weapons did not reach the combat zone as they were removed on the journey and transferred to ships returning to the UK, a MoD spokesman said. The weapons never entered the territorial waters of the Falklands Islands or any South American country, Reuters news agency quoted a MoD spokesman as saying. " From the article I cited in the OP. So again, why is an apology due? The weapons in question never turned up in the combat zone. Also, as Amanset points out, the issue would not even have arisen if Argentina had not invaded? > [@](#): > > \*\*I think that we have the right to know, every single detail, after all we are going to be the ones affected by any problem with those weapons, if there are any in the bottom of the sea, we… not England, after all they are thousands of kms away. \*\* I agree. However I doubt that Kirchner’s posturing is really going to help bring about the sort of relations where the two countries have such open exchanges of information. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/172 "2003-12-14T20:25:05Z")
> [@](#): > > _by jjimm_ > > All this thread is showing so far is that **Mr. B** is a thundering idiot, utterly incapable of rational debate. Hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/173 "2003-12-14T20:27:52Z")
> [@](#): > > _by Estilicon_ > > I thought till this threat that there was nothing worst than an “ugly american”… I was wrong an “ugly english” is ten times worst. Their latest military exploit (not counting the presente fiasco in Irak) was using all it’s military might to recover two god forsaken islands from a small, weak country that only made a half hearted effort to recover them. And for that every time they hear the word “falklands” they go to their knees and kiss Tatcher’s and the Queen´s wrinkled, old asses… pathetic.- You’ve got a point, but I can’t fully agree. I hope you don’t mind if I modify your statement. This appears to be a subject that is too painful for some Britons to debate without a total loss of objectivity. **Estilicon** , as a personal aside, my cousin served in the Falklands and has been watching this thread; he’s ashamed at the reactions from some of his countrymen, especially the ignorant sniping and personal attacks. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/174 "2003-12-14T20:49:49Z")
**To the room** : this Board is supposed to be about fighting ignorance. I have laid out many different arguments, with quotes and citations, as well as anecdotal information. Very few of you have actually tried to counter my arguments. If you don’t like my style or can’t understand my point of view, it’s neither very adult nor very kind to continue to insult me. It seems some people take great pleasure in trying to hurt another person, rather than attempting to understand his point of view. I’m actually a little embarrassed for those people. **To the drive-bys** : your tactics are a public display of your deficiencies in skill and mental acuity, as well as a clear violation of forum rules. This Pit would be “an adult place for lively debate” if it weren’t for your benighted snipings. Please take your contributions back to MPSIMS where your talents are suited to discussions about “wedding rings in body orifices” and “my poo smells funny after a chicken tikka dinner.” Your novelty has worn thin. **To the OP** : write a tighter Opening Post next time or be prepared for criticism and modifications. Either that, or place a disclaimer across the top that says “Disputing the factual basis of the OP will result in severe retaliation.” This thread has indeed fought _my_ ignorance: [list=1][li]Before this, I was unaware that some Brits are just as ill-informed about the Falklands as most Americans are of the Balkans. And Brits can be every bit as defensive as Americans are about Viet Nam.[/li] [li]It’s clear that, based on some of the cites I have provided, the British press has spun this story to evince a negative and vociferous reaction from the British public. _At this point, I’m not certain if this spin originated in the press or the government, but it was effective nonetheless_.[/li] [li]I am also beginning to doubt British press sources almost as much as I doubt American ones. Outside of the British press or AP News sources, I can’t find a single reference to the following line, purportedly from Mr. Kirchner: [/li][quote] “The UK must ask our forgiveness.” [/quote] Very curious, especially after my own experiences as a reporter. I hope this quote wasn’t spawned by effective paraphrasing on the behalf of a news editor.[/list=1] ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/175 "2003-12-14T21:06:27Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* \*\* [li]I am also beginning to doubt British press sources almost as much as I doubt American ones. Outside of the British press or AP News sources, I can’t find a single reference to the following line, purportedly from Mr. Kirchner: Very curious, especially after my own experiences as a reporter. I hope this quote wasn’t spawned by effective paraphrasing on the behalf of a news editor.[/list=1] \*\*[/li][/QUOTE] Can you read Swedish? [http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/utrikes/did\_6627774.asp](http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/utrikes/did_6627774.asp) Here are some tranlsations that might help: Argentina kräver ursäkt av britterna “Argentina demands an apology by the British” Storbritannien måste be om ursäkt “Great Britain must ask for forgiveness” Han efterlyste brittiska regeringsmedlemmar som har “förmåga att be om tillbörlig ursäkt”. “He would like the British Government Members who have “the ability to make a proper apology”” (bit of a rough translation there, my Swedish isn’t perfect. Pity as that bit is in quotes. I can ask my Girlfriend later if you want). kärnvapen Nuclear Weapons ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/176 "2003-12-14T21:18:14Z")
Thanks, **amanset**. My search has only yielded the following: > [@](#): > > “Britain should never have usurped sovereignty over the Malvinas … I am simply demanding the rights of Argentines and I hope Tony Blair understands that and is listening,” Kirchner said. “What Argentina needs is for (Britain) to have the decency to make a necessary apology.” To me, the above statement sounds like a demand for an apology, but not about the nuclear weapons. It sounds like Mr. Kirchner wants the UK to apologize for taking the Falklands in the first place. I’ve just ordered a copy of the transcript of his statement. Hopefully, that’ll clear things up a bit. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/177 "2003-12-15T11:10:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > \*\*Hypocrite. \*\* Poopyhead. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/178 "2003-12-15T11:14:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > **To the room** : this Board is supposed to be about fighting ignorance. I have laid out many different arguments, with quotes and citations, as well as anecdotal information. Very few of you have actually tried to counter my arguments. Bullshit. You’ve got so many requests for cites outstanding it’s become painful. For example, where’s that cite for your definition of Malvinan. Where’s an example of my “anti-american insults”. Show how Kirchner’s statements have been misquoted or spun. You can’t can you? One of the reasons I like the pit is this - when you catch someone talking complete bullshit, you can point it out to them. You, Mr B, are talking out of your arse. You’re spinning from one strawmen to the next, changing tactic and point as each of your previous inanities is pointed out. But I did admire the impressive hypocricy of then playing the “fighting ignorance” card. OK, do that. Prove me wrong. Provide a fucking cite, a clear cite showing where my quotes were wrong. Hell, I’ll make it easy - provide a quote of my anti american insults. Should be easy as fuck for you, you just have to read through the thread and quote it. [QUOTE] [li]I am also beginning to doubt British press sources almost as much as I doubt American ones. Outside of the British press or AP News sources, I can’t find a single reference to the following line, purportedly from Mr. Kirchner…[/list=1] \*\*[/li][/QUOTE] Tell you what, perhaps you might believe an Argentian news source then: [http://www.buenosairesherald.com/the\_world/note.jsp?idContent=28308](http://www.buenosairesherald.com/the_world/note.jsp?idContent=28308) > [@](#): > > “Britain yesterday refused to apologize for carrying nuclear weapons on some of its naval ships during the 1982 Malvinas War with Argentina. President Néstor Kirchner on Saturday called for the apology after the Ministry of Defence in London admitted some of its vessels had carried nuclear depth charges during the conflict” See how easy that it - you find your source, you provide a link, and you quote the relevant information. I hope this helps in fighting your ignorance Mr B. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/179 "2003-12-15T11:46:18Z")
**Mr. B** – give an example (one will do) of a point you have raised in this thread that has not been addressed and we’ll deal with it now. There are so many errors you’ve made in this thread it’s difficult to know where to start. You even claimed that Mr Kirchner had made a statement to the UN (it was that “imbued with the Malvinas culture” thing), yet your supporting cite indicated that he didn’t even attend the relevant meeting. Now you cast doubt over whether Mr Kirchner has really demanded an apology over nuclear weapons at all, claiming that you have been unable to find a cite for it, yet several times you’ve referred to the apology demand yourself and [even provided your own cite for it](http://www.mercopress.com/Detalle.asp?NUM=2957&Palabra=contamination) on page 2 of this thread (NB _not_ a British source). If you are too lazy to read your own cites we can only guess how good a reporter you are. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526/180 "2003-12-15T12:56:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amanset \* > But isn’t the point that they are not easily removed and stored, it would take 36 hours to do so. Of course the UK could have waited 36 hours before setting sail, but to many people waiting a further 36 hours, in the process letting a foreign power get an even better foothold in British territory, was simply not an option. Can’t comment on the 36 hours thing, because we know nothing about it save for the (presumed) MOD spin; would it realy have taken “36 hours” ?, why ? . . . a single, partisan source isn’t enough, realy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-must-apologize-to-argentina-for-the-falklands/217526.md?page=10)