# "The" Ukraine **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 28, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524 "2014-02-28T17:08:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/21 "2014-03-01T06:00:57Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I’ll overlook the subtle ageism since I’ve already largely conceded the point. 🙂 > > Use of the article does bring with it an air of colonialism, when the map was covered with large swaths of unexplored and exotic territory, like The Transvaal and The Hindu Kush. But aren’t those geographical features? The Hindu Kush is a mountain range, anyhow. We don’t say “Rockies” or “Himalaya Mountains” without the article. I still haven’t gotten used to hearing Ukraine or Congo, and I probably never will. One of the aspects of descriptive grammar is whether an article is needed in a given context, and with all due respect it doesn’t seem right that they should be telling us how to say the name of their country when we’re not using their language. On the other hand, given the extensive role played around the world by the English language, I begin to see their point. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/22 "2014-03-01T08:04:59Z")
Soon possibly to be known as “‘the’ country formerly known as Ukraine,” judging from news reports? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/23 "2014-03-01T11:54:04Z")
The Tyrol. ---
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/24 "2014-03-01T17:28:18Z")
_The_ Ohio State University ---
**Author:** ![Kiyoshi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e19adc/32.png) [@Kiyoshi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiyoshi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/25 "2014-03-01T17:57:00Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Don’t forget “the” Ivory Coast. That’s a weird one. I wonder why its official name is Côte d’Ivoire, not _La_ Côte d’Ivoire? And yet we translate it to _The_ Ivory Coast. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/26 "2014-03-01T18:22:12Z")
> [@Kiyoshi](#): > > That’s a weird one. I wonder why its official name is Côte d’Ivoire, not _La_ Côte d’Ivoire? And yet we translate it to _The_ Ivory Coast. ‘Ivory Coast’ is the correct current English term for the country, not ‘The Ivory Coast’. In common with most other ‘the’ countries, references to a river or region, the modern day country views it as somehow downplaying their legitimacy as a country. The Gambia is an exception; the official name of the country is Republic of the Gambia but they don’t reject the ‘the’. At one time the general area that’s now Togo and Benin was referred to by Europeans as ‘The Slave Coast’, to the west of it was ‘The Gold Coast’ (now Ghana) and further west ‘The Ivory Coast’. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/27 "2014-03-01T18:33:10Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > ‘Ivory Coast’ is the correct current English term for the country, not ‘The Ivory Coast’. Well, depends. Some like the CIA Factbook use “Cote d’Ivoire” in preference. No ‘the,’ and no circumflex, which looks weird like an alternative spelling of “cot.” It looks to me like “the/la” refers to “République,” which is optional, and not “Côte.” So “the Republic” can be left off optionally. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/28 "2014-03-01T18:44:43Z")
I’ve often wondered why we say “The South of France” instead of just “Southern France.” ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/29 "2014-03-01T19:10:36Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Seriously. What’s wrong with Czechia? Although I personally would like it to be Czechistan. Oddly enough, there is an almost identical thread going on right now on the James Randi Educational Foundation message board – initial topic, " ‘The’ Ukraine, or not" – widening into other places with “The” in their titles. Someone there, liked the idea of “Czechistan”. I weighed in, with the perhaps flimsily-based notion / rumour of “Lekhistan” being a central-Asian / Middle Eastern term for Poland – whereby folks who use that, quite likely would indeed call the neighbouring country “Czechistan”. This lore originates, I gather, from the legend of the northern Slavonic peoples coming originally from three brothers: Lech (Polish), Czech, and Rus – who quarrelled and did each other down in numerous ways – which stuff has gone on pretty well continuously from that day to this. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/30 "2014-03-01T19:18:44Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I’ve often wondered why we say “The South of France” instead of just “Southern France.” I kind-of get the picture that “The South of France” connotes particularly the famously glamorous / idyllic south-eastern corner of France: Provence / the Cote d’Azur / the Riviera. Other parts of the southern third / half of France – though replete with various kinds of delights in their own right – don’t get quite the “cachet” that the far south-east gets. This is probably not fair or rational – just, “people are funny, and perceive what they perceive”. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/31 "2014-03-01T19:50:52Z")
It really all does seem to come down to whether the speaker is referencing a region or a country. AFAIK, there is no country of the name, so it’s “the Caucasus”; in the US it’s “the West” or “the Northeast.” If a region \*becomes \*a country, it may take generations for the world to start calling it Congo or Caucasus or West or Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2014, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/32 "2014-03-01T23:23:42Z")
At one time there were [**the Canadas**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Canadas), Upper Canada and Lower Canada. > [@](#): > > Their names reflected their positions relative to the headwaters of the St. Lawrence River, the same relationship between Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt: . . . ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/33 "2014-03-02T01:36:19Z")
Products from Stanley Tools that are made in Thailand are labeled: “Made in The Thailand”. Never saw that usage anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/34 "2014-03-02T01:41:32Z")
Solomon Islands is a country that occupies most of the Solomon Islands. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/35 "2014-03-02T03:03:34Z")
> [@Kiyoshi](#): > > That’s a weird one. I wonder why its official name is Côte d’Ivoire, not _La_ Côte d’Ivoire? And yet we translate it to _The_ Ivory Coast. The English-language press in Thailand officially uses Ivory Coast without “the” and not Cote d’Ivoire. But I used to hear “the” Ivory Coast in my younger days. > [@elmwood](#): > > Products from Stanley Tools that are made in Thailand are labeled: > > “Made in The Thailand”. > > Never saw that usage anywhere else. Haven’t seen that one myself. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/36 "2014-03-02T03:28:26Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Solomon Islands is a country that occupies most of the Solomon Islands. Also (the Independent State of) Samoa, which covers most (but not all) of the Samoan Islands. There is also American Samoa, where the people are nationals of (but not citizens of) the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/37 "2014-03-02T03:47:40Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > AFAIK, there is no country of the name, so it’s “the Caucasus”. No, it’s “Caucasia”. Also, I don’t care what the “official” English name of Czechia is, _I_ call it Czechia. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/38 "2014-03-02T03:47:42Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > …the people are nationals of (but not citizens of) the USA. How does that work? What is on their passports? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/39 "2014-03-02T05:50:06Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > How does that work? What is on their passports? I _think_ they’re US passports. From what I understand, they can’t vote and such, but if they go to the US they travel “without restrictions” (e.g. the normal manhandling we all get, no passport needed) and have a status sort of like a green card, making citizenship easier to get. Whereas Puerto Ricans et al. are US citizens. They can’t vote in a lot of mainland matters, but it’s not tied to their person - they gain the rights when going to the 50 states, while a Minnesotan loses this if he moves to PR. They all get crippled DC-style representatives. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2014, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524/40 "2014-03-02T05:52:21Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > How does that work? What is on their passports? There’s an endorsement that says something like “the bearer is not a United States citizen.” I wonder how other countries treat that, like if there’s a country that allows US citizens to visit visa-free but requires visas for mere nationals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ukraine/682524.md?page=3)