# The Ultimate Ashes Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 25, 2005, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539 "2005-08-25T07:46:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/121 "2005-09-13T07:59:46Z")
So, ultimately, Warne dropped the Ashes. But without him, Australia wouldn’t even have been close. Forty wickets in five Tests is a phenomenal effort, even without his 249 runs and five catches. Right, gotta get the DVD when it comes out. This has been the father and mother of all Ashes series. Who’d have thought you’d see scoring at four or even _five_ an over in a Test? ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/122 "2005-09-13T08:25:45Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Who’d have thought you’d see scoring at four or even _five_ an over in a Test? I haven’t followed this series, but I’ve seen Australia do it many times before. Of course, before seeing some of India’s innings, who’d have thought one would see scoring at four or even five an hour. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/123 "2005-09-13T11:38:20Z")
> [@II Gyan II](#): > > I haven’t followed this series, but I’ve seen Australia do it many times before. Yes - but England doing it right back to them? Belting them for 400 in a day? Time was not too long ago that if you saw upwards of 250 in a day you thought you’d seen a good day’s cricket. Credit where it’s due, the Australian approach to Test cricket in recent years has revolutionised the game as a spectacle. They’ve made a virtue out of getting on with the game to the extent that a five-day Test at all, let alone a drawn one, is getting to be a rarity. And the present England side is well-equipped to carry on the same way. Bell’s been a big disappointment with his batting (but has held a stack of catches) and Geraint Jones is a bit so-so, but otherwise you’ve got an XI here that scores quickly most of the way down the order and a powerful and reasonably balanced bowling attack (by modern standards, at any rate, which means four pacemen in contrasting styles!). Onwards and upwards! ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/124 "2005-09-13T17:19:11Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > So, am I the only one who thinks there’s something very difficult to see parked behind the sight-screens? 😉😃 Dunno, i thought i heard rumours of a Chesterfield sofa appearing on the pitch though… ---
**Author:** ![Fredescu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/73ab20/32.png) [@Fredescu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fredescu)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/125 "2005-09-14T02:19:24Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Onwards and upwards! The only team I can see challenging the current England side is Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka. That won’t be happening until late 2007 though. India in India is happening early next year and it will be interesting to see how the best bowling attack in the world is handled by arguably the best batting side in the world on their own pitches. India’s poor bowling attack will ultimately lose them that series though, even with spinners from both ends on India’s spin friendly pitches. We have the super series coming up next, and it feels a bit empty after an Ashes loss. The rest of the world team was supposed to be the only team that could give Australia a run for our money. Now our team is showing their age and their domination of world cricket is on the wane. I would prefer to skip it and go straight to tackling South Africa, which should be an interesting series. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/126 "2005-09-14T09:30:17Z")
And now I see Dennis Lillee has gone in and started bayonetting the wounded… my but he looks old these days! ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/127 "2005-09-14T10:10:26Z")
After all this Ashes hooha has died down and Duncan Fletcher’s contract as England coach comes to an end (anyone know when that is?), it is entirely possible that he will up sticks and, quite legitimately, take his professional coaching skills to another country - his native Zimbabwe, for example, or New Zealand, Sri Lanka, Kenya: anyone whose cricket board has enough money to tempt him. I wonder whether the UK government would then take away the UK nationality so hastily granted to him to pander to the masses? ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/128 "2005-09-14T11:45:14Z")
Gee I’d like to share a lottery ticket with Ashley Giles. In all the euphoria of England’s good form of the last year or two no has noticed that he is crap. I defy anyone to find another bowler in world cricket with worse figures who has managed to play 50 Tests. If he is the best spinner in England I would be very surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/129 "2005-09-14T12:44:56Z")
You should have let those grapes ripen a bit first, **don’t ask**. Gilo fronted up twice when it counted, admittedly with the bat… and I certainly don’t know of another England-qualified spinner who’s that much of an improvement on him. Figures aren’t everything, I mean, Gilchrist has redefined the term “wicketkeeper-batsman” over the last few years, and yet he didn’t amount to a big old heap of 'roo poo this series. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/130 "2005-09-14T13:23:17Z")
Surprisingly there are very few sour grapes here. I don’t know anyone who begrudges England’s victory and most real cricket fans feel that iut is a great thing for world cricket that we lost. I have been just as critical of many Aussie selections but it amazes me that Giles can play 50 tests with a bowling average of nearly 40 and in fact 57 this series. But if he is the best spinner in England good luck to him… ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/131 "2005-09-14T14:30:50Z")
He has his good and bad moments. Here’s something to consider: > [@cricinfo](#): > > Until a matchwinning nine-wicket haul at Lord’s in 2004, Giles’s most memorable moments had all come on his three tours of the subcontinent. The rip-snorting delivery that pitched outside leg and fizzed past Inzamam-ul-Haq’s dangling bat on to the stumps at Karachi was the best piece of bowling by an England spinner since Phil Tufnell teased the Aussies at The Oval in 1997, and paved the way for a famous victory. The following winter, and nursing a persistent Achilles injury, he hobbled back and forth from the middle to the physio’s ice bucket, while returning Test-best figures of 5 for 67 at Ahmedabad. And, two years later, after remodelling his action and enduring a dismal tour to Bangladesh, he burst back to form in Sri Lanka, with 18 wickets in the series and a magnificent matchsaving stand in the first Test at Galle. It was just the latest of many impressive batting performances from a man who had worked hard at his game to become a pivotal player in England’s lower order, and against New Zealand at Trent Bridge in 2004 his stand with Graham Thorpe was instrumental in England’s triumph. One month later at Lord’s, he produced a wickedly ripping delivery to bowl Brian Lara - his 100th wicket in Tests, weeks after being virtually written off by the press. He ended the summer as a key part of the side, taking 22 wickets at 23.13 against West Indies. Now granted, someone was saying before the series started that anyone who got out to Giles should hang himself, but that’s ten Australians as yet un-hung… Yes, if it was me I’d like to see a Verity or a Laker in the side, or even an Underwood, but we haven’t got one. Now and then Giles does good. We’ll have to put up with that. Any thoughts on whether McGill should have got a game? Perhaps “sour grapes” was harsh. I was especially taken with Warne admitting three times in one short speech that England were just too good. It takes a man to say that after a nailbiting series loss in which he, personally, had sweated buckets of blood. He may be an overweight phone sex addict 🙂 , but how we wish we had him. It was only a few short years ago that most cricket books were assuming spin bowling was over and done with, especially leg-spin. Warne’s impact on the game as a whole has been tremendous. I just wish we could catch some of it, but it’s anyone’s guess when that’s likely to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Fredescu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/73ab20/32.png) [@Fredescu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fredescu)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/132 "2005-09-15T00:36:55Z")
I agree with blooding 22 year old Tait over giving the 34 year old MacGill another run. You have to feel for MacGill though. He can spin the ball a mile and in any other era he would easily have 50 tests under his belt. He just doesn’t have the guile and variation of Warne. His fielding is a bit suspect, and he bats at 11 even in domestic cricket. Probably a better spinner than Giles, but would never have averaged 20 with the bat as Giles did. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/133 "2005-09-15T02:17:12Z")
> [@don't ask](#): > > If Giles is the best spinner in England good luck to him. Unbelievable but true. There are a couple of British spinners at Lancashire and another county I can’t remember, but many counties have an overseas spinner. He’s good for nicknames, though, “Wheelie Bin” having been all but supplanted by the “King of Spain”. I think the latter has something to do with a misprint of the ironically bestowed epithet “King of Spin”. England need a spinner; they need a Number 5 (that’s putting Pietersen at Number 4); they need a better keeper. They need another couple of quicks in reserve. That apart, it’s a good team. Image of the seaon for me: Pietersen shouting down Shane Watson. Beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![GraceTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c4cdca/32.png) [@GraceTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GraceTX)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/134 "2005-09-15T11:07:49Z")
> [@don't ask](#): > > Gee I’d like to share a lottery ticket with Ashley Giles. In all the euphoria of England’s good form of the last year or two no has noticed that he is crap. I defy anyone to find another bowler in world cricket with worse figures who has managed to play 50 Tests. [John Emburey](http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/ci/content/player/12514.html) had almost exactly the same average as Giles and played 64 tests. I suppose that just suggests that it’s been a very long time since England had a quality spinner, though. Saying that, I happen to like Ash. Sure, he’ll never be a Warne or a Muri, but he does a pretty good job supporting the strike bowlers for England, his catching is top-notch and he’s proved in the last two tests that he can soak up pressure with the bat when he’s needed. Plus, on the spin-friendly pitches of India he ought to prove a valuable member of the team once more. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have a great spinner in the side, but until that happens, I’m happy enough with the King of Spain. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/135 "2005-09-16T00:55:12Z")
Last decent spinner England had was Jim Laker. I suppose you can throw in Tony Lock too. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/136 "2005-09-16T08:17:08Z")
Amusing choice of words considering the controversy over Lock’s action at some stages of his career…! We’ve never had the kind of spinners that become a terror to opposition countries for years on end the way Warne has, Murali has, and Grimmett and O’Reilley used to. Edmonds and Emburey had their moments, Underwood was a legendary destroyer on wet wickets but less incisive (more of a containing medium-pacer) once covered pitches came ni. Otherwise you have to go back to the likes of Verity and Rhodes. Equally, leg-spin has never really paid off for us on a regular basis. “Tich” Freeman did wonders for Kent but was comparatively modest in Tests (66 wickets in 12 Tests would be fine these days, but few of them were against Australia), Doug Wright was a handful on his day but bowled too many bad balls. In English conditions I guess swing and cut have historically borne more fruit than spin, so that’s what we have - and, as mentioned above, for those parts of the English season when pitches favour spin, most counties seem to get an overseas pro in. Mind you, I remember watching Philip DeFreitas in a Sunday league game a few years back. For some reason the pitch had become a right Bunsen and he’d cut his run-up and was bowling enormous offies. They were devastatingly effective. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539/137 "2005-09-16T08:53:30Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Mind you, I remember watching Philip DeFreitas in a Sunday league game a few years back. For some reason the pitch had become a right Bunsen and he’d cut his run-up and was bowling enormous offies. They were devastatingly effective. Yikes, he’s just come out to Hong Kong, and I might have to face him. More likely to be umpiring him, in truth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-ashes-thread/318539.md?page=6)