# The ultimate irony--Gay bashing attack at the Stonewall Inn **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 5, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112 "2010-10-05T13:27:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/41 "2010-10-06T00:17:33Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > You know, I can’t speak for blacks where the word n----r is concerned, but speaking as a gay male I’d actually rather see it written “faggot” than “f----t” when it’s being quoted. The redacting gives it more power. Well, i can speak for neither African Americans nor gays, but i completely agree with you. While i think it’s completely inappropriate to use racial and homophobic epithets to insult someone, or to refer to someone in general conversation, i don’t think we should shy away from using the words in cases where their use is appropriate to a proper understanding of an event, or a discussion of racism or homophobia. The guy in this case called his victim a faggot. We shouldn’t shy away from that by writing f----t. It doesn’t really change anything, because anyone who reads it knows what the word is anyway. Similarly, when i teach about slavery, or about ideas of racial supremacy in America during the Civil Rights era, i refuse to use the term “the ‘n’ word” in place of nigger. Plenty of people in American history, north and south, have been very comfortable referring to African Americans as niggers, and i think that making this clear to students is better than papering it over with euphemisms. The students themselves are always a little shocked the first time the word comes out of my mouth, but i think that historians have an obligation not to censor the reality just because it makes some people uncomfortable. As a semi-related aside, i feel the same with writing profanity like “s–t” and “f–k.” If you’re too precious to write the whole word out, then omit it altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/42 "2010-10-06T00:20:35Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Huh? > > While i agree that it is reasonable to infer from the whole incident that sexual identity was a factor in the attack, i don’t really understand why this new and slightly altered set of details is any more supportive of such an inference than the original set of details. Why is the particular scenario that you’ve laid out here so compelling, where the other was not? All you’ve demonstrated here is that reasonable people can reasonably differ on what constitutes a reasonable inference. > > Which sort of negates the fairly black-and-white line you’ve been trying to suggest is possible in cases like this. The law itself might be very specific on the criteria that need to be met for a hate crime, but when one of the factors in its specificity is jurors drawing a reasonable inference, the whole notion of objectively correct and incorrect decisions is basically out the window. Two things have to happen: 1. The inference must be reasonable, -and- 2. The evidence must exclude all reasonable hypotheses other than one that support guilt. It’s in this second area that the new dialog is key. The first dialog might let the jury think that the victim was selected because he was gay, but it didn’t eliminate the alternate reasonable inference that the pair simply chose a bar and waited in the restroom for a victim, with no thought of gay or straight. They may have commented on his sexuality after they saw him, in other words, but incidentally to the robbery attempt. The revised version eliminates that possibility. If believed, that shows that they KNEW they were in a gay bar and removes the reasonable inference that they were simply picking _a_ bar restroom. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/43 "2010-10-06T00:32:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The revised version eliminates that possibility. If believed, that shows that they KNEW they were in a gay bar and removes the reasonable inference that they were simply picking _a_ bar restroom. Not at all. One can be well aware that one is in a gay bar without having chosen that bar specifically _because_ it was a gay bar. I’ve been in Irish pubs in New York City, even on occasions when i did not go out specifically seeking an Irish pub. Similarly, if i wanted to rob someone in a bar, and chose to scope out the bar first, i would probably be well aware of what type of bar it was. It could be a gay bar, an Irish pub, a stock-broker’s bar, or whatever. But it would not necessarily follow that i had chosen that bar because of its particular clientele. It might, for example, simply be the closest bar to the subway where i intend to make my escape, or the closest bar to the West Side Highway where my accomplice is waiting in our getaway car. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/44 "2010-10-06T00:33:57Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If you’re too precious to write the whole word out, then omit it altogether. Well, fsck THAT! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/45 "2010-10-06T00:46:08Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > THIS lSN’T FUCKING IRONIC Indeed. Not even to the level of rain on one’s wedding day. Rain on one’s _gay_ wedding day, though… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/46 "2010-10-06T01:05:01Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > The revised version eliminates that possibility. If believed, that shows that they KNEW they were in a gay bar and removes the reasonable inference that they were simply picking _a_ bar restroom. > > Not at all. > > One can be well aware that one is in a gay bar without having chosen that bar specifically _because_ it was a gay bar. Of course. But then you’d have very little reason to ask the patron you encounter in the restroom if he’s gay. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/47 "2010-10-06T01:10:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course. But then you’d have very little reason to ask the patron you encounter in the restroom if he’s gay. Maybe, but i still really don’t see how that slightly new circumstances allow you to make such a confident shift in your conclusions. I understand the distinction you’re drawing, i simply don’t agree with you. I find the first scenario just as convincing regarding the thug’s motivations. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/48 "2010-10-06T01:38:46Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > Of course. But then you’d have very little reason to ask the patron you encounter in the restroom if he’s gay. > > Maybe, but i still really don’t see how that slightly new circumstances allow you to make such a confident shift in your conclusions. > > I understand the distinction you’re drawing, i simply don’t agree with you. I find the first scenario just as convincing regarding the thug’s motivations. But that’s not the right question to be asking. Sure, a reasonable jury COULD find either scenario convincing. Before, though, a reasonable jury couldn’t point to any evidence that let them exclude the innocent explanation. Before, it wasn’t “competing evidence, and we believe this version.” It was, “There is no evidence that lets us make the leap.” Now there is. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/49 "2010-10-06T02:01:12Z")
> [@Leaking\_Boot](#): > > Let’s go back to the original subject for a second; gay bashing in a gay bar - not really the ‘ **Ultimate Irony** ,’ is it? It’s certainly where I’d go to bash gays. Except that this was the Stonewall Inn, cite of the famous [Stonewall Riots](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/50 "2010-10-06T02:08:08Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > > [@Leaking\_Boot](#): > > > > Let’s go back to the original subject for a second; gay bashing in a gay bar - not really the ‘ **Ultimate Irony** ,’ is it? It’s certainly where I’d go to bash gays. > > Except that this was the Stonewall Inn, cite of the famous [Stonewall Riots](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots). So it’s where you bash gays with cheap souvenirs you bought at the gift shop. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/51 "2010-10-06T02:17:40Z")
Who gives a fuck if it’s legally a “hate crime?” It’s certainly a gay-bashing, however it’s charged. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/52 "2010-10-06T02:24:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@Guinastasia](#): > > > > Except that this was the Stonewall Inn, cite of the famous [Stonewall Riots](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots). > > So it’s where you bash gays with cheap souvenirs you bought at the gift shop. Pretty much. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/53 "2010-10-06T02:33:56Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > > [@Leaking\_Boot](#): > > > > Let’s go back to the original subject for a second; gay bashing in a gay bar - not really the ‘ **Ultimate Irony** ,’ is it? It’s certainly where I’d go to bash gays. > > Except that this was the Stonewall Inn, cite of the famous [Stonewall Riots](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots). Two things. A) “Site,” not "cite. B) The Stonewall Riots were precipitated by a gay bashing - in this case, by police against the patrons of the bar. The Stonewall Inn, therefore, is specifically famous due to violence committed against homosexuals. So another act of violence committed against a homosexual there is not remotely ironic, even in the most degraded sense of term. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/54 "2010-10-06T02:40:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Who gives a fuck if it’s legally a “hate crime?” It’s certainly a gay-bashing, however it’s charged. My sentiments precisely. It’s fair to call it a gay bashing and it’s enough to prosecute them for attacking a guy for his money. I’m just glad the victim is going to be okay. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/55 "2010-10-06T12:32:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Who gives a fuck if it’s legally a “hate crime?” 1. The person [asking this question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12990113&postcount=4) does, for reasons we could only speculate about but might be simply be curiosity about the law. 2. The persons charged, who face a sentence enhancement if hate crime is proved. 3. Any reader interested in the legal aspects of hate crime enhancements. 4. Me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/56 "2010-10-06T12:33:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > A) “Site,” not "cite. Cite? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/57 "2010-10-06T12:49:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course. But then you’d have very little reason to ask the patron you encounter in the restroom if he’s gay. What about in [a fast food restaurant](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQuEvwnujOU)? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/58 "2010-10-06T12:55:31Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > Of course. But then you’d have very little reason to ask the patron you encounter in the restroom if he’s gay. > > What about in [a fast food restaurant](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQuEvwnujOU)? Not seeing either the joke, or the seriousness, of this reference. The link is a clip of _In Living Color_ featuring Jim Carrey as a patron at a fast food restaurant who announces repeatedly to the staff and other patrons that he’s gay, to their general indifference. So… not sure I see the humor, if you meant it as a joke, and not sure I see the relevance if you meant to make a serious point. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/59 "2010-10-06T13:22:34Z")
It’s an idle non-sequitur to be sure and one purely provoked by word association, but since there was already an ongoing Alanis Morrisette thing happening I didn’t think it would derail the serious discussion much. Although if you’d like to discuss how dated it is in terms of gay-themed humor I’m happy to start a new (serious) thread on it. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/60 "2010-10-06T13:32:47Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > B) The Stonewall Riots were precipitated by a gay bashing - in this case, by police against the patrons of the bar. The Stonewall Inn, therefore, is specifically famous due to violence committed against homosexuals. So another act of violence committed against a homosexual there is not remotely ironic, even in the most degraded sense of term. Although it’s not really ironic according to the strict definition of the term, I can see what the OP was getting at. The Stonewall Inn, the site of a riot that was the start of the movement towards gays demanding their rights, including the right not to be subject to violence and other persecution for being gay, is _still_ the site of violence and persecution for being gay_40 years later_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112.md?page=4)