# The ultimate irony--Gay bashing attack at the Stonewall Inn **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 5, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112 "2010-10-05T13:27:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/81 "2010-10-06T16:06:38Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Well, fsck THAT! I’ll file systems check _you_. > [@descamisado](#): > > Although it’s not really ironic according to the strict definition of the term, I can see what the OP was getting at. Of course. We all do. The problem is that he said “ironic,” when it isn’t ironic. He used an easy shortcut to what he wanted to say instead of saying it, with the end result that he said something completely wrong and not what he meant at all. This would have been a perfect opportunity, by the way, to use my own suggested word, “ironick.” This is used to refer to things that display “irony” in the same sense as 99% of the Alanis Morisette song. > [@](#): > > The Stonewall Inn, the site of a riot that was the start of the movement towards gays demanding their rights, including the right not to be subject to violence and other persecution for being gay, is _still_ the site of violence and persecution for being gay_40 years later_. Yeah, and that’s not ironic at all. There’s nothing that would make you think that it wouldn’t be the site of more gay-bashing. In fact, if you were going to seek out a gay man to abuse, it would be an entirely logical and expected place to go. It’s like saying it’s \*ironic \*that you’d see a gymnast at the Summer Olympics. > [@Captain\_Midnight](#): > > Anytime that a homosexual gets hit by someone, either in an arguement, physical alteration or whatever, they yell “gay bashing”! 95% of the time, it is about drugs, or alcohol was involved, and words get said. > > The most famous example is of course Matthew Shepard in Laramie, Wyoming. The media protrayed Shepard as a victim of a gay crime, when what happened was that he was jumped by two guys for money to buy drugs. Had nothing to do whatsoever with homosexuality. As a matter of fact, there is evidence that one of the killers had homosexual relations with the victim. > > NYC is a big, rough city. People get mugged, beat up and messed with. Just because you are homosexual doesn’t give you special rights. Gays murder heterosexuals too. Can I charge them with a hate crime? The Stonewall guy was mugged. No biggie, this is what the perps should be charged with. But in America, one has the right to say what he wants. I’ve been called a lot of things. Not illegal. > > Besides, can’t homosexuals defend themselves physically? I’m sure they can. Especially the male like lesbians in flannel. Gays are proud to say that they are members of the military, police forces, fire departments, sports teams, etc. Surely, you can fight back instead of bellering and crying in your lavender hankeys while stomping on every other American’s First Amendment rights. Thank you for yet again reinforcing in my memory that you’re a disgusting, retarded bigot. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/82 "2010-10-06T16:21:14Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@descamisado](#): > > > > Although it’s not really ironic according to the strict definition of the term, I can see what the OP was getting at. > > Of course. We all do. The problem is that he said “ironic,” when it isn’t ironic. He used an easy shortcut to what he wanted to say instead of saying it, with the end result that he said something completely wrong and not what he meant at all. Which is exactly why I said right off the bat “Although it’s not really ironic according to the strict definition of the term, I can see what the OP was getting at.” I knew all that, but thanks for rehashing what has already been said. Gee, lots of gay men at a gay bar; who’d’ve thunk it. BTW, Annie-Xmas, the OP, is a “she.” ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/83 "2010-10-06T16:57:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’d have better luck educating **Vinyl Turnip** ’s Slurpee machine. Million monkeys aside, I think it’s safe to say this is the first time this sentence has ever been assembled. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/84 "2010-10-06T17:03:45Z")
Barring a career change, presumably it will also be the last. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/85 "2010-10-06T17:08:01Z")
Why does anybody feed **Captain Midnight**? His posts are self-discrediting. Let him starve. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/86 "2010-10-06T17:10:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why does anybody feed **Captain Midnight**? His posts are self-discrediting. Let him starve. You’re right, of course. I was thinking exactly the same thing the other day when he made another one of his charming observations, yet today i got suckered into responding. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/87 "2010-10-06T18:02:22Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > BTW, Annie-Xmas, the OP, is a “she.” I know she is. Somehow, I thought that **Malthus** ’s post immediately after mine meant that he had written the OP and I never scrolled back up to verify. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why does anybody feed **Captain Midnight**? His posts are self-discrediting. Let him starve. Now _this_, coming from _you_, \*\*\*is \*\*\*ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Kurt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@Kurt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kurt)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/88 "2010-10-06T23:29:55Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So another act of violence committed against a homosexual there is not remotely ironic, even in the most degraded sense of term. Ummm… what about the irony of a gay-bashing taking place at what is almost universally recognised as the birthplace of modern gay rights? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/89 "2010-10-07T02:33:08Z")
> [@Kurt](#): > > > [@Miller](#): > > > > So another act of violence committed against a homosexual there is not remotely ironic, even in the most degraded sense of term. > > Ummm… what about the irony of a gay-bashing taking place at what is almost universally recognised as the birthplace of modern gay rights? Hmm. Interesting point. However, I think you may have overlooked the fact that the Stonewall Riots were precipitated by a gay bashing - in this case, by police against the patrons of the bar. The Stonewall Inn, therefore, is specifically famous due to violence committed against homosexuals. So another act of violence committed against a homosexual there is not remotely ironic, even in the most degraded sense of term. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/90 "2010-10-07T02:36:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Guinastasia](#): > > > > Except that this was the Stonewall Inn, cite of the famous [Stonewall Riots](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots). > > Two things. > > A) “Site,” not "cite. > > B) The Stonewall Riots were precipitated by a gay bashing - in this case, by police against the patrons of the bar. The Stonewall Inn, therefore, is specifically famous due to violence committed against homosexuals. So another act of violence committed against a homosexual there is not remotely ironic, even in the most degraded sense of term. A.) :smack: (Sorry, I suppose I read too many “cite!” comments around here!) B.) So in this case, it’s not even the Alanis version, then. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/91 "2010-10-08T19:18:09Z")
I know this has nothing to do with the OP but I was wondering whether those who are, shall we say, cautious about inferring “hate crime intent,” think [this case](http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7713884&hpt=T2) in the Bronx merits those charges, regardless of whether they think hate crime legislation should exist (which, btw, does exist in New York). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/92 "2010-10-08T19:30:54Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > I know this has nothing to do with the OP but I was wondering whether those who are, shall we say, cautious about inferring “hate crime intent,” think [this case](http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7713884&hpt=T2) in the Bronx merits those charges, regardless of whether they think hate crime legislation should exist (which, btw, does exist in New York). Drawing reasonable inferences from the reporting, I’d say there’s unquestionably probable cause to believe the victims were chosen based on their sexual orientation. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/93 "2010-10-09T00:16:13Z")
Thanks, **Bricker**. I am very gratified by the person who slipped the detectives the phone number that lead to the first suspect, and I’m also happy for the vigorous investigation pursued by the NYPD and that all of the victims survived, though I suspect in terms of possibility of retaliation, this is not over for them. In addition to charges of unlawful imprisonment, abduction, sodomy, assault, robbery, and menacing as hate crimes, within what has been described in the account you’ve read, do you see potential for any other charges? Possible conspiracy (for the crimes and the coverup), endangerment (because of the prolonged beating and the forced consumption of such an amount of alcohol within what must have been a fairly short amout of time (though the article doesn’t specify)), or RICO charges (because of their acting on concert as an organized gang)? Are there any federal upgrades, besides possibly RICO, available? Looks like law enforcement is doing diligent and good work already but these acts were the product of craven, depraved and heinous behaviour, carried out by individuals acting in conspiracy and with must have been some amount of planning to hurt, maim and humiliate people they couldn’t possibly have considered human. The swag they acquired must have been considered gravy. ETA: Also, are there any other possible charges possible because they used the confinement of the 30-year-old as inducement to procure $1,000 from his brother? ---
**Author:** ![pikey\_pete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pikey\_pete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pikey_pete)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/94 "2010-10-09T05:06:56Z")
> [@Leaking\_Boot](#): > > Let’s go back to the original subject for a second; gay bashing in a gay bar - not really the ‘ **Ultimate Irony** ,’ is it? It’s certainly where I’d go to bash gays. ok, it isnt the ULTIMATE irony, but getting gay-bashed in the men’s room of the Stonewall Inn is almost as good an example of irony as Eric Rudolph. ---
**Author:** ![pikey\_pete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pikey\_pete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pikey_pete)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/95 "2010-10-09T05:14:30Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > THIS lSN’T FUCKING IRONIC pray tell, why is this not ironic? it sure as hell fits in any definition I can find in my two different treeware dictionaries. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2010, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/96 "2010-10-09T05:31:20Z")
> [@pikey\_pete](#): > > pray tell, why is this not ironic? If I may speak in terms relating to the concept of ferromagnetism, this topic is as balsa. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2010, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/97 "2010-10-09T05:56:22Z")
> [@pikey\_pete](#): > > > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > > THIS lSN’T FUCKING IRONIC > > pray tell, why is this not ironic? it sure as hell fits in any definition I can find in my two different treeware dictionaries. You need to buy some better dictionaries. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2010, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/98 "2010-10-09T06:34:15Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > [QUOTE=NY Hate Crimes Statue] > > A person commits a hate crime when he or she commits a specified > offense and either: > (a) intentionally selects the person against whom the offense is > committed or intended to be committed in whole or in substantial part > because of a belief or perception regarding the race, color, national > origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability > or sexual orientation of a person, regardless of whether the belief or > perception is correct, or > (b) intentionally commits the act or acts constituting the offense in > whole or in substantial part because of a belief or perception regarding > the race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious > practice, age, disability or sexual orientation of a person, regardless > of whether the belief or perception is correct. > 2. Proof of race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, > religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation of the defend- > ant, the victim or of both the defendant and the victim does not, by > itself, constitute legally sufficient evidence satisfying the people’s > burden under paragraph (a) or (b) of subdivision one of this section. > 3. A “specified offense” is an offense defined by any of the following: [/QUOTE] I know it’s a typo but I would love to see a hate crimes statue. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2010, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/99 "2010-10-09T06:42:41Z")
> [@EvilTOJ](#): > > I know it’s a typo but I would love to see a hate crimes statue. 😛 It’d probably get vandalized a lot. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112/100 "2010-10-09T13:35:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > B) The Stonewall Riots were precipitated by a gay bashing - in this case, by police against the patrons of the bar. The Stonewall Inn, therefore, is specifically famous due to violence committed against homosexuals. So another act of violence committed against a homosexual there is not remotely ironic, even in the most degraded sense of term. I get your point, but the OP’s observation of “irony” is not because Stonewall Inn was a place where gay-bashing took place, but because it is _also_ a symbol for the several-decades-long gay rights movement which followed. In other words, it is a _symbol_ for _how far we’ve come since then_. As others have noted, the irony then falls away again when you realize that this recent incident + the bar as a symbol of how far we’ve progressed = a reminder of how far we still have to go. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ultimate-irony-gay-bashing-attack-at-the-stonewall-inn/556112.md?page=6)