# The Unabomber was right **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706 "2009-12-18T02:54:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/81 "2009-12-21T00:57:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > She was vermin, not a humanitarian. She sacrificed other people, condemned them to suffering and death so she could mentally masturbate over her religious issues. No better than Torquemada, in her own way. > > Nonsense. That encouraged conformity, the destruction or suppression of “unchristian” knowledge, the elevation of dogma over reason and inquiry, and on and on. The fundamental intolerance and falsehood of Christianity discourages any kind of serious critical thought; considering god to be the “Architect of the Universe” means that you aren’t supposed to think about the universe. Just believe what you are ordered to believe. > > Religion is a disease of the mind. It is never a good thing. Yadda yadda could you please back up your ad hominem statements with some examples or facts. For instance why did Christian civilization techologically progress far faster than the Classical society. Even from an atheist perspective the concept of the Abhramic God represented a step from local gods of nearby trees, mountains etc. to a more distant god and thence to atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/82 "2009-12-21T01:09:29Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Yadda yadda could you please back up your ad hominem statements with some examples or facts. Letting people die so you can spend donated money on more missions isn’t the act of a humanitarian. Shoving people onto cots and praying over them so you can show how holy you are isn’t humanitarian. Thinking that suffering brings you closer to god isn’t humanitarian. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Yadda For instance why did Christian civilization techologically progress far faster than the Classical society. Because they came afterward. They didn’t progress far faster for most of their history; and the real acceleration in progress has coincided with a drastic weakening in the power of religion. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Yadda Even from an atheist perspective the concept of the Abhramic God represented a step from local gods of nearby trees, mountains etc. to a more distant god and thence to atheism. Just two different flavors of poison. In general Christianity was worse, though; by its nature intolerant and aggressive. If Jesus had just shut up I think the world would have been better off. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/83 "2009-12-21T01:12:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Letting people die so you can spend donated money on more missions isn’t the act of a humanitarian. Shoving people onto cots and praying over them so you can show how holy you are isn’t humanitarian. Thinking that suffering brings you closer to god isn’t humanitarian. > > Because they came afterward. They didn’t progress far faster for most of their history; and the real acceleration in progress has coincided with a drastic weakening in the power of religion. Even in the Middle Ages when the Pope was supreme Europe had windmills that were unknow in the days of Pericles or Trajan. > [@](#): > > Just two different flavors of poison. In general Christianity was worse, though; by its nature intolerant and aggressive. If Jesus had just shut up I think the world would have been better off. Even the times when Jesus said “to turn the other cheek” or reiterated the golden rule? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/84 "2009-12-21T01:17:48Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Even in the Middle Ages when the Pope was supreme Europe had windmills that were unknow in the days of Pericles or Trajan. And? They had things their ancestors didn’t as well. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Even the times when Jesus said “to turn the other cheek” or reiterated the golden rule? “Turn the other cheek” is in most situations stupid and unethical behavior. And the golden rule is outright malignant when combined with the rest of Christian theology; it leads right to “Well, if I was an unbeliever of COURSE I’d prefer to be tortured into accepting Christ rather than burn forever in Hell!” Religion is morally crippling by its nature; by promoting a religion he promoted evil regardless of his intent. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/85 "2009-12-21T01:20:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Religion is morally crippling by its nature Is not. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/86 "2009-12-21T01:22:47Z")
I fear my questions of post 79 will go unanswered. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/87 "2009-12-21T01:25:20Z")
> [@fessie](#): > > Is not. You can’t reliably make good moral decisions when you are operating on a false view of the world, with a false view of the consequences, and false priorities. Even ignoring the general ruthlessness and lack of empathy religion tends to produce in people, you can’t make reliable decisions when you are living in fantasyland. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I fear my questions of post 79 will go unanswered. Probably. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/88 "2009-12-21T01:32:50Z")
[quote=“Der\_Trihs, post:84, topic:521706”] And? They had things their ancestors didn’t as well. [QUOTE] Civilization has progressed faster in the 18th and 19th Centuries (when most people were still Christian) than in all the Classical period. > [@](#): > > “Turn the other cheek” is in most situations stupid and unethical behavior. And the golden rule is outright malignant when combined with the rest of Christian theology; it leads right to “Well, if I was an unbeliever of COURSE I’d prefer to be tortured into accepting Christ rather than burn forever in Hell!” > > Religion is morally crippling by its nature; by promoting a religion he promoted evil regardless of his intent. Christianity forbids adhererants from forcing religion on someone else. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/89 "2009-12-21T01:35:32Z")
I knew it was dangerous to mention religion, as the subject brings out teh crazy around here — But no, **Bryan Ekers** , Christianity =/ pacifism. Please also note that Christianity =/ religion, and religion =/ God. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/90 "2009-12-21T01:36:14Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Christianity forbids adhererants from forcing religion on someone else. Are the adherents aware of this? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/91 "2009-12-21T01:37:14Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > And? They had things their ancestors didn’t as well. > > Civilization has progressed faster in the 18th and 19th Centuries (when most people were still Christian) than in all the Classical period. Because by then they had better tools, more knowledge, the scientific method, and religion was weaker. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Christianity forbids adhererants from forcing religion on someone else. :rolleyes: Oh, please. Christianity got to where it is now on a sea of the blood of unbelievers. It slaughtered, it burned books and people; it tyrannized people and destroyed civilizations in order to spread itself. It is a malignant cancer of a religion, that spreads regardless of the cost to anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/92 "2009-12-21T01:39:13Z")
> [@fessie](#): > > But no, **Bryan Ekers** , Christianity =/ pacifism. Curtis didn’t say “pacifism”, he said “peace and order”. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/93 "2009-12-21T01:44:59Z")
[QUOTE] > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > > > Because by then they had better tools, more knowledge, the scientific method, and religion was weaker. Religion was weaker? Most of the upper classes in the Classical period were borderline agnostics who considered religion more of a formality than anything else. > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: Oh, please. Christianity got to where it is now on a sea of the blood of unbelievers. It slaughtered, it burned books and people; it tyrannized people and destroyed civilizations in order to spread itself. It is a malignant cancer of a religion, that spreads regardless of the cost to anything else. By Christians who ignored or misinterperted the Bible. And every ideology, cause, and nation has been used to justify bloodshed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/94 "2009-12-21T01:49:13Z")
Would you be so kind as to point out a stern moralistic Christian nation that current western democracies should emulate? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/95 "2009-12-21T01:49:15Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Religion was weaker? Most of the upper classes in the Classical period were borderline agnostics who considered religion more of a formality than anything else. But they were a small minority, and didn’t have the tools or knowledge to advance quickly. I was speaking of religion in the 18/19th centuries as being weaker than in the earlier Christian era. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > By Christians who ignored or misinterperted the Bible. Please. The Bible is barbaric. You don’t need to ignore or misinterpret it to justify slaughter and tyranny; it demands such things. Besides, the Christianity that matters is the one in people’s heads, not the one written down. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/96 "2009-12-21T01:51:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I fear my questions of post 79 will go unanswered. The one where you asked why someone could give Mother Theresa any credit because she could solve the poverty problem in India? I just assumed you weren’t serious. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/97 "2009-12-21T02:16:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Would you be so kind as to point out a stern moralistic Christian nation that current western democracies should emulate? Ireland (pro-life in all ways). > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But they were a small minority, and didn’t have the tools or knowledge to advance quickly. I was speaking of religion in the 18/19th centuries as being weaker than in the earlier Christian era. Than here’s the question: why did Christianity lead to secularism? Perhaps monotheism was a transitive and necessary step in history for the triumph of atheism. > [@](#): > > Please. The Bible is barbaric. You don’t need to ignore or misinterpret it to justify slaughter and tyranny; it demands such things. Besides, the Christianity that matters is the one in people’s heads, not the one written down. Well it’s not my fault that other Christians use the Bible to justify violence. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/98 "2009-12-21T03:36:37Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Ireland (pro-life in all ways). A place with ( not coincidentally ) a history of treating women like garbage. As it does everywhere, “pro-life” really means “abuse and oppress women”. Some “morality”. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Than here’s the question: why did Christianity lead to secularism? Perhaps monotheism was a transitive and necessary step in history for the triumph of atheism. Oh, nonsense. Secularism didn’t “arise” from Christianity; it and science fought Christianity off and overwhelmed it here and there. Progress and the weakening of Christianity ( and every other religion ) go hand in hand. In order to progress; Christianity had to be shoved as or be subjugated by society. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well it’s not my fault that other Christians use the Bible to justify violence. It is if you are pushing that same evil. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/99 "2009-12-21T03:42:58Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > The one where you asked why someone could give Mother Theresa any credit because she could solve the poverty problem in India? I just assumed you weren’t serious. No, I was asking what exactly Curtis thinks Mother Theresa actually did. It’s very easy to hold her up as a paragon of virtue because lots of people _say_ she’s a paragon of virtue, but if one analyzes the actual effect of her actions, they aren’t all that positive. Curtis then mentioned that “conditions in India are being improved by economic and social trends”, which has _nothing_ to do with Theresa, whose actions were arguably counter to this progress. Essentially, he’s using Mother Theresa as an example of Christian virtue, while it’s unclear that he even knows who Mother Theresa was, or what she did. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Ireland (pro-life in all ways). I gather we won’t be counting the various times Irish Christians killed other Irish Christians. That was in the long-distant past, after all, the ancient prehistoric time period known as 1998. > [@](#): > > Well it’s not my fault that other Christians use the Bible to justify violence. It’s your fault if you refuse to recognize what easily can (and almost certainly will) happen in a country run along strict Christian lines. We don’t give devout communists the benefit of letting them claim that cruelties won’t happen under “real” communism, so convince us to treat you differently. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706/100 "2009-12-21T08:57:06Z")
Yeah - and technology gave us gunpowder, dynamite and the atom bomb. Get over it. The issue isn’t the means (and religion has certainly been a means); the issue is the evil we spread via our creations. From **Scylla** ’s link: > [@The Technium](#): > > As best I understand, the Unabomber’s argument goes like this: > > ``` > * Personal freedoms are constrained by society, as they must be. > * The stronger that technology makes society, the less freedoms. > * Technology destroys nature, which strengthens technology further. > * This ratchet of technological self-amplification is stronger than politics. > * Any attempt to use technology or politics to tame the system only strengthens it. > * Therefore technological civilization must be destroyed, rather than reformed. > * Since it cannot be destroyed by tech or politics, humans must push industrial society towards its inevitable end of self-collapse. > * Then pounce on it when it is down and kill it before it rises again. > > ``` > > In short, Kaczynski claims that civilization is the disease and not the cure. Off the top of my head I can’t think of anything we (humanity) has collectively created that does not have a dark side, a Juno. Because we ourselves have that darkness. I mentioned art, music, sports and parenthood as individual experiences that can be transformational, can give one a feeling of “touching God’s hem”. The things we can do on our own, to me, represent renewal and healing and hope. Then we return to the company of others and try to create an architecture to sustain them, and darkness returns. Or, as Stephen King said, “Give me one person, and I’ll show you a saint. Give me two and they’ll fall in love. Three, and they’ll create this charming thing called society. Seven, and they’ll declare war.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unabomber-was-right/521706.md?page=6)