# The unbelievable arrogance of academics **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 1, 2001, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263 "2001-06-01T22:18:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/61 "2016-05-25T21:35:29Z")
> [@benjamin\_mazariegos](#): > > The problem is that you automatically dismiss anyone who has no higher education and think you can’t learn from them. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, had no higher education. 😃 All three of them had _some_ higher education, and all came from relatively privileged backgrounds (Bill especially.) ---
**Author:** ![benjamin\_mazariegos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f9ae1b/32.png) [@benjamin\_mazariegos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/benjamin_mazariegos)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/62 "2016-05-25T21:41:40Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > All three of your examples had higher education. Gates attended Harvard, Jobs attended Reed College, and Ellison attended University of Illinois and University of Chicago. > > None of them graduated, but that’s not same as having no education. Yes, but none of them had any degrees in business or computer science which was their specialty. Larry Ellison…In his oral history, he recalled, “I never took a computer science class in my life. I got a job working as a programmer; I was largely self-taught. I just picked up a book and started programming.” ---
**Author:** ![benjamin\_mazariegos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f9ae1b/32.png) [@benjamin\_mazariegos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/benjamin_mazariegos)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/63 "2016-05-25T21:52:48Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > All three of them had _some_ higher education, and all came from relatively privileged backgrounds (Bill especially.) The point here is they being dropouts who didn’t qualify as experts in their fields succeeded beyond what others with degrees have never been able to. Steve Jobs took a Calligraphy class, therefore we have the Fonts… Abraham Lincoln had no higher education. Edward Everett a Harvard Phi Beta Kappa, didn’t write history at the Gettysburg, it was the Kentucky woodsman the one who is remembered today. Ferdinand Porsche never received any higher engineering education! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/64 "2016-05-25T22:02:55Z")
> [@benjamin\_mazariegos](#): > > The problem is that you automatically dismiss anyone who has no higher education and think you can’t learn from them. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, had no higher education. 😃 Maybe they did not graduate, but they had braiiiiiins! ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/65 "2016-05-25T22:13:29Z")
When this thread started, I totally agreed with the OP. Now, sixteen years later, I have my PhD, and the OP just sounds like a whiny loser. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/66 "2016-05-25T22:21:23Z")
How about if you get education while you are high? ---
**Author:** ![benjamin\_mazariegos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f9ae1b/32.png) [@benjamin\_mazariegos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/benjamin_mazariegos)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/67 "2016-05-25T22:58:43Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Maybe they did not graduate, but they had braiiiiiins! Talent, and brains, and also persistence. Remember ol’ Tom Edison? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/68 "2016-05-26T00:54:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How about if you get education while you are high? I was in Cambridge the same time Gates was, and that’s a fair description of the entire town at the time. ETA: I went to the good school in Cambridge. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/69 "2016-05-26T00:59:58Z")
> [@benjamin\_mazariegos](#): > > The point here is they being dropouts who didn’t qualify as experts in their fields succeeded beyond what others with degrees have never been able to. Steve Jobs took a Calligraphy class, therefore we have the Fonts… Gates is and was not an expert in the field of computer science. You don’t have to be an expert to write a Basic interpreter (though it was a pretty good one.) You really don’t have to be an expert to buy an OS from someone and resell it. Gates was an efficiently ruthless businessman, but no one argues you learn that in college. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/70 "2016-05-26T02:52:03Z")
> [@benjamin\_mazariegos](#): > > Talent, and brains, and also persistence. Remember ol’ Tom Edison? I remember that thieving [douchebag](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5KDTw_OQ1Y)quite well, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/71 "2016-05-26T03:39:38Z")
> [@benjamin\_mazariegos](#): > > The point here is they being dropouts who didn’t qualify as experts in their fields succeeded beyond what others with degrees have never been able to. **Voyager** already sort of addressed this but perhaps the subject needs more emphasis, thusly: I’m not sure whether the zombie OP or this latest contribution is the greater idiocy, but both are abundantly idiotic. The OP proffers a sweeping generalization based on what I can only surmise is some bizarre subset of academics with whom he’s had adversarial relationships. Among my circle of academic acquaintances, since everyone has a Ph.D. it’s not a distinguishing attribute and no one thinks anything of it. The only people who seem to flaunt it are frauds peddling snake oil on behalf of whoever they’re shilling for. In general academics can be vicious amongst themselves under a veneer of faculty club civility, but I’ve never personally known them to routinely disparage non-academics except for idiot politicians. With regard to the quote from our new arrival who revived this prehistoric diatribe, this is just pure bullshit. You don’t advance science without serious scientific training, almost necessarily at post-graduate levels. People who seem to be in awe of the likes of Bill Gates or Steve Jobs invariably confuse business skills like cunning, drive, organizational skills, and rare fortuitous strokes of prescient vision with basic scientific innovation, which neither of those people did except arguably, maybe, to some extent when their companies grew big enough to be able to establish and staff real research departments with actual competent researchers a good deal more educated than the CEOs they worked for. Much of the personal computer and OS innovation that they get credit for was developed by actual scientists at Xerox PARC and shamelessly stolen by both those clowns. There’s no doubt that Gates was a superb and ruthless business strategist and Jobs was both a visionary and first-rate salesman and marketeer. Neither were personally advancing basic research or had any ability to do so, and both were the beneficiaries of a great deal of luck. Both created huge companies with an uncertain future, neither of which conducts research that can compare with even an ordinary reputable university or, for that matter, with IBM, which has somehow managed to retain at least a semblance of strategic thinking within its corporate culture. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/72 "2016-05-26T06:32:54Z")
Geez I must be in a different world, in my line of work I’ve rubbed shoulders with brilliant professors and students from “snooty” schools like Lehigh, Lafayette, Villanova, Drexel, Rutgers and many others and have found everyone nothing but a pleasure to work with. Kinda agree with **JKellyMap** -----you didn’t get the grade you wanted, or someone offered a disagreeable opinion who happened to be a PhD. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/73 "2016-05-26T11:57:44Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > Wow. I thought this thread would just fall off and I would have to dig to see if any responses. Typical arrogant assumption by an academic. ---
**Author:** ![benjamin\_mazariegos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f9ae1b/32.png) [@benjamin\_mazariegos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/benjamin_mazariegos)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/74 "2016-05-26T12:12:07Z")
> [@](#): > > You don’t advance science without serious scientific training, almost necessarily at post-graduate levels. I totally disagree in this point: Gregor Mendel, Thomas Edison, Henrietta Swan Leavitt, Joseph Priestley, Michael Faraday, Grote Reber, Felix d’Herelle, etc. All of them Amateurs, not trained scientists. > **[NOVA | Orchid Hunter | Great Amateurs in Science | PBS](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/orchid/amateurs.html)** > > In this overview, meet ten amateur scientists, from Thomas Jefferson to David Levy, who secured a place in the history books with their contributions to the world of science. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/75 "2016-05-26T12:21:09Z")
> [@benjamin\_mazariegos](#): > > I totally disagree in this point: Gregor Mendel, Thomas Edison, Henrietta Swan Leavitt, Joseph Priestley, Michael Faraday, Grote Reber, Felix d’Herelle, etc. > All of them Amateurs, not trained scientists. > > [NOVA | Orchid Hunter | Great Amateurs in Science | PBS](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/orchid/amateurs.html) Hence the “almost.” The point was valid. Nearly all your examples are from the dim and distant past. (Reber was mid-20th-C, but he was more an inventor than scientist – I guess it hinges on what is meant by “to advance science.” If we include inventors of scientific tools, a case could also be made for, say, a politician who pushes for more money to fund NSF). ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/76 "2016-05-26T12:28:04Z")
I’m giggling about the cancer mechanics comment from 15 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/77 "2016-05-26T12:36:00Z")
> [@Kamandi](#): > > “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.” > > Teddy Roosevelt (I think) > > [Snip] > > “Bully!” > > He definitely said that. And it applies to a lot of academia. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/78 "2016-05-26T12:39:52Z")
> [@Kamandi](#): > > “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.” > > Teddy Roosevelt (I think) > > (Not a slam against statistics. I just think the quote is cool.) > [@JeffB](#): > > That was Benjamin Disraeli. > [sub]damn uneducated yahoos[/sub]😃 Yes, it was Disraeli. Mark Twain popularized the saying in the US, but he credited Disraeli. My wife was an assistant professor at a university for 30 years. She is the nicest and least arrogant person I have ever met in my life. (She’s also a statistician.) Some of her colleagues though … ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/79 "2016-05-26T12:40:26Z")
I just want to know, **Benjamin** , what you were looking for when you dug up this thread. Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263/80 "2016-05-26T13:30:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I was in Cambridge the same time Gates was, and that’s a fair description of the entire town at the time. > > ETA: I went to the good school in Cambridge. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unbelievable-arrogance-of-academics/67263.md?page=5)