# The Unforgiven **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 13, 2009, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877 "2009-09-13T01:45:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ElectricZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58f4c7/32.png) [@ElectricZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElectricZ)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/21 "2009-09-14T19:01:00Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > Wilson is a true match for Shane. Little Bill is just a complacent bully who never stood a chance against Bill Munny. I think the Eastwood is a better pic, but _Shane_’s climax is a showdown, not a turkey shoot. I actually some respect for Little Bill. He’s a misogynist, an ass and a bully to be sure, but like Will Munny he’s part of a different breed of Old West killer. The scene where he educates the writer in the jail cell about what makes him different than a “celebrity” gunslinger like English Bob showed what he was made of. He proves it again after Munny kills Skinny at the saloon in front of all the town’s deputies. Bill walks into Munny’s last loaded barrel tells his men to gun Munny down as soon as he shoots, fully expecting to die in the blast. Had his deputies not turned out to be worthless, he might have survived the fight and even taken Munny out. I think that’s one of Unforgiven’s strengths: none of the characters are 100% bad or good. That’s what makes them interesting, and Unforgiven more than your standard horse opera. (OK the cowboy who cut up Delilah had it coming. But then again, we all have it comin’…) ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/22 "2009-09-14T19:57:10Z")
I think the slow raising of the barrel of the shotgun into the frame during the celebration scene in the bar has got to be one of the most chilling and perfect scenes in filmdom. I get shivers just thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/23 "2009-09-14T22:12:56Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I disagree. It was the only Costner movie that had some quality and thought put into it. > [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > Open Range is better in just about every way. **Chefguy,** I agree with you that DWW is better than a lot of netpundits give it credit for, but check out _Open Range_ if you haven’t already. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/24 "2009-09-14T22:16:11Z")
Whatever became of the actor who played the Kid? he was pretty damn good, especially ini the scene right after he shot the guy and he was all scared. That whole scene is masterful, and the cinematography in the movie is something special as well. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/25 "2009-09-14T22:56:51Z")
The Duck Of Death ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/26 "2009-09-14T23:04:36Z")
The scene where they wounded the guy and he wanted water was classic. The humanity and fear that you never associate with gunslingers was the epitome of the anti-western theme. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/27 "2009-09-15T00:05:31Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Whatever became of the actor who played the Kid? Here is his [IMDB article](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0941316/). Electricz, I think Little Bill was trying to intimidate Munny rather thanintending to get shot. Besides, he was an asshole. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/28 "2009-09-15T00:22:02Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > …_Open Range_ is better in just about every way. Agree, I liked \*Open Range \*quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/29 "2009-09-15T00:22:16Z")
_Unforgiven_ is, I believe, the movie you are thinking of. [_The Unforgiven_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054428/) is a relatively uncelebrated John Huston movie. It’s a good movie, but Peckinpah’s _The Wild Bunch_ and John Ford’s _The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance_ are better revisionist Westerns. _Unforgiven_ plays off of Eastwood playing the pathetic flip side of his “Man With No Name” character from Leone’s spaghetti Westerns. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/30 "2009-09-15T00:46:15Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > _Unforgiven_ is, I believe, the movie you are thinking of. [_The Unforgiven_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054428/) is a relatively uncelebrated John Huston movie. That was explained to me in post # 2. Thanks anyway! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/31 "2009-09-15T14:15:42Z")
> [@ElectricZ](#): > > I actually some respect for Little Bill. He’s a misogynist, an ass and a bully to be sure, but like Will Munny he’s part of a different breed of Old West killer. The scene where he educates the writer in the jail cell about what makes him different than a “celebrity” gunslinger like English Bob showed what he was made of. He proves it again after Munny kills Skinny at the saloon in front of all the town’s deputies. Bill walks into Munny’s last loaded barrel tells his men to gun Munny down as soon as he shoots, fully expecting to die in the blast. Had his deputies not turned out to be worthless, he might have survived the fight and even taken Munny out. > > I think that’s one of Unforgiven’s strengths: none of the characters are 100% bad or good. That’s what makes them interesting, and Unforgiven more than your standard horse opera. > > (OK the cowboy who cut up Delilah had it coming. But then again, we all have it comin’…) Couldn’t have said it better myself. When I watched it for a film class in college (after I’d already seen in a fistful of times), I told the teacher that one of my favorite things about it was that there were no “good” characters. Everyone’s dirty in some way. And like you, I do believe that Little Bill was more than just a bully. Sure, he takes advantages wherever he can get 'em, but you can see that he’s always calculating, as when he shows that his “quick” draw isn’t blinding fast, but that he knows keeping a cool head and shooting straight is better than being fast. And you gotta have some stones to keep a cool head under fire. The funny thing is, when he finally faces Munny at the end, he appears to me to lose his cool and screw up his draw; he grabs awkwardly for his gun with two hands. It’s hard to list favorite scenes, because there are so many, but one that hasn’t been mentioned: when one of the town prostitutes delivers the bounty to Munny, along with the news that Ned is dead. And as he listens, Munny takes that bottle, for what you know is the first time in years, and drinks deep, staring back at the town. That’s when you know the killing fire is back in him. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/32 "2009-09-15T15:21:10Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Munny takes that bottle, for what you know is the first time in years, and drinks deep, staring back at the town. That’s when you know the killing fire is back in him. I got the significance of the drink, I didn’t realize he was looking towards Big Whiskey. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Miltonyz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Miltonyz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miltonyz)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/33 "2009-09-15T15:28:04Z")
I watched this just the other night also. It seems the gutshot cowboy was the closest we have to a truly good character. He attempts to stop his friend from cutting up the whore and gets punished only because he was with him. He also tries to bring extra horses for the prostitutes as amends. I think that it is no coincidence that the two most innocent characters Ned, and the cowboy suffer the most painful deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/34 "2009-09-15T15:28:30Z")
Ayuh. That’s the scene where Will Munny turns into Clint fucking Eastwood. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/35 "2009-09-15T15:50:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Ayuh. That’s the scene where Will Munny turns into Clint fucking Eastwood. Huh? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/36 "2009-09-15T15:52:55Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Huh? He’s falling off his horse, he can’t shoot anymore, he isn’t even really mad at anyone until that point. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/37 "2009-09-15T15:59:52Z")
Deserves got nothing to do with it. I say that almost anytime someone uses the word deserve in a sentence. Too bad I never have the opportunity to say “Anyone who doesn’t want to get killed better clear on out the back.” But pretty much the movie is full of assholes. I think only the whore who got cut up is the only decent person. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/38 "2009-09-15T16:39:44Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Huh? Up until that point he was a tired, over-the-hill gunslinger who couldn’t shoot, couldn’t ride and who shied away from confrontation. From that first sip onward, he was the Man With No Name, the Clint we’ve come to know and fear. Watch the scene again - even his speech patterns changed. (I was responding to two posts above me. Check the timestamp.) ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/39 "2009-09-15T16:53:27Z")
Got it, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877/40 "2009-09-15T18:01:23Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Deserves got nothing to do with it. “I was building a house.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unforgiven/509877.md?page=3)