# The Unfortunate Effect of the Negative Stereotype \[ed. title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2008, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998 "2008-05-12T04:59:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/101 "2008-05-15T14:33:25Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] The United States and the West. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] I think he learned to respect them before he died. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/102 "2008-05-15T14:38:34Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I think he learned to respect them before he died. [/QUOTE] I think you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/103 "2008-05-15T14:39:39Z")
I’ve been a black belt for almost thirty three years, taught martial arts to a range of people from children to police officers, and trained and competed up and including national level. I’ve trained in judo. jujutsu, wing tsun, Shotokan karate, tae kwon do and aikido, and you don’t know jack shit. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/104 "2008-05-15T14:41:22Z")
Note to self: be nice to **Shodan**. ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/105 "2008-05-15T14:53:35Z")
Stop Hijacking! Kim Il-Sung is ignorant of his legacy. Rage is a behavior Hate is an emotion. Morality is the learning process of distinguishing between virtues and vices. A virtue is a trait valued as being good. Vice is the opposite of virtue. Hate can be valued good or bad depending on the morals of the individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/106 "2008-05-15T15:00:27Z")
Well, that’s a handy list of word definitions, I guess, but what good is it? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/107 "2008-05-15T16:51:15Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] Those kinds of things have happened: \* 2008 - Striking dock workers clash with riot police at state-controlled Piraeus (OLP) and Thessaloniki (OLTH) ports [37],Greece, Jan 11+15 \* 2008 - Riots in Belgrade on embassy’s of countries recognizing the independence of Kosovo by Serbian nationalists. \* 2008 - Tibetian unrest, Mar. 10 - Present. (Tibet, China) \* 2007-2008 - Food riots in Mexico, India, Peru, Morocco, Egypt, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Italy, Austria, Hungary, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Namibia, Uzbekistan, Indonesia, Yemen, Guinea, Cameroon, Burkina Faso, Mauritania and Senegal. \* 2008 - Haitian Price riots, Apr. 3, 4 killed/20 wounded., Les Cayes Haiti \* 2008 - Egypt Price and Wage riots, Apr. 6-7, 1 killed, 20 injured, 25 arrested, Mahalla el-Kubra, Egypt \* 2008 - April 21 fans burn police cars in Montreal when Montreal Canadiens defeat Boston Bruins in first round of NHL Playoffs \* 2008 - 1. May riots in Hamburg, Berlin and Nürnberg (Germany) an Manila (Philippines) Those kinds of things can happen in a split second. [/QUOTE] None of these things happened in the US, and we’re not talking about spontaneous rioting. You’re claiming that “ill-tempered discussions” may lead to systematic oppression here in the US and I’m strongly disputing that given the political realities here. Political correctness rules the roost, and scandal-mongering has become the national pastime. There’s an ongoing witch-hunt for racists and other kinds of bigots. Politicians and government officials get in all kinds of trouble over sexual or financial improprieties, but you’re saying that soon they’ll start getting away with ordering mass killings and/or mass civil rights violations. I think that’s far-fetched. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/108 "2008-05-15T18:13:49Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] Stop Hijacking! [/QUOTE] Yeah! Thread hijacking destroys the ozone layer! It’s inevitable! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/109 "2008-05-15T19:47:34Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Hate does not impell, it impedes everything it touches. All the things you mentioned can, and are, being worked on without hate. Hate is destructive and always destroys anything that holds it. [/quote] And is there any reason to believe that beyond your own assertion ? Thought not. People do good because of hatred all the time. Everything from overthrowing tyrants to small scale stuff like exercising and becoming healthier because they hate being fat. [QUOTE=lekatt] I will stick with Love. Love holds things together and builds upon them. [/QUOTE] Sometimes. Sometimes it ruins or destroys them. And sometimes being held together isn’t a good thing. No matter how many times you say that love in intrinsically good, that won’t make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/110 "2008-05-16T04:06:18Z")
> [@](#): > > **focusonz** : Rage is a behavior Wrong-o. It often expresses itself in behavior, but it is not the behavior itself. Rage is the intense anger behind the behavior. _And it can be controlled and precisely directed._ But watch out when it is! **Shodan** , your credentials are cool and they explain some of your self-control here. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/111 "2008-05-16T04:10:37Z")
> [@](#): > > **sqweels** : …but you’re saying that soon they’ll start getting away with ordering mass killings and/or mass civil rights violations. I think that’s far-fetched. You haven’t noticed that there have already been mass civil rights violations? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/112 "2008-05-16T12:28:45Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I’ve been a black belt for almost thirty three years, taught martial arts to a range of people from children to police officers, and trained and competed up and including national level. I’ve trained in judo. jujutsu, wing tsun, Shotokan karate, tae kwon do and aikido, and you don’t know jack shit. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] I am not doubting your skills or sincerity, teach whatever you will. However, martial arts were originally invented by Monks to protect themselves from robbers. It was a spiritual event and as such did not contain any fear, hate, anger, rage, and soforth. Monks, being spiritual did not hold fear. Anger, hate, and other negative emotions are subsets of fear. They taught mindfulness (focus), respect for their enemies skills and confident in their own skills. I do realize that some martial arts are no longer spiritual events, and I don’t know what they teach. But fear, however taught is detrimental to action. In WWI the most decorated hero was Sargent York, he was a Quaker and did not believe in killing. But when he saw men dying around him he figured the fastest way to stop the killing was to win the battle, and he went into action killing dozens of Germans and capturing hundreds more. He acted not out of fear, but out of caring. In WWII the most decorated hero was Audie Murphy, probably the most decorated hero ever, he charged machine guns, and fought off hundreds of Germans in order to save the lives of his fellow soldiers. He was not motivated by fear either. When asked if he was afraid, he replied: “I never considered I could get killed.” In summary: there is no place for fear in combat or civilian life, it leads to anger, and then to hate, which is detrimental to the holder and not the recipient. Our task is to understand ourselves and eliminate fear by replacing it with caring, and compassion. I also realize what I have said is not the standard of our society, it is the spiritual path. Socrates said: “know thyself” and “the unexamined life is not worth living.” He is right. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/113 "2008-05-16T14:48:17Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] However, martial arts were originally invented by Monks to protect themselves from robbers. [/QUOTE] Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/114 "2008-05-16T14:58:05Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] In summary: there is no place for fear in combat or civilian life, it leads to anger, and then to hate, which is detrimental to the holder and not the recipient. [/QUOTE] “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” - Yoda That said, fear is instinctual and saying there is “no place for it” is like saying there is no place for noses. It’s a part of people and always will be. It can’t be cut off just because you say it’s bad. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/115 "2008-05-16T16:05:37Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] You haven’t noticed that there have already been mass civil rights violations? [/QUOTE] **Focusonz** is talking about at very least a return of Jim Crow-style oppression if not Nazi-style oppression, not simply Bush-style oppression, as bad as it is. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/116 "2008-05-16T16:17:43Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” - Yoda That said, fear is instinctual and saying there is “no place for it” is like saying there is no place for noses. It’s a part of people and always will be. It can’t be cut off just because you say it’s bad. [/QUOTE] Fear is not instinctual, it is learned and can be unlearned. As people grow older and wiser they fear less, many who feared spiders, snakes, the dark, no longer do so because of knowledge of their fears showed them unfounded. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/117 "2008-05-16T16:25:18Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Cite? [/QUOTE] [http://www.martial-arts-info.com/comment/120/352](http://www.martial-arts-info.com/comment/120/352) > [@](#): > > Actually, Kung fu’s origins are said to stem from the teachings of an Indian Buddhist onk named Bodhisatva or Bodhidharma who used techniques of yoga and pre-existing fighting techniques to create kung-fu which flourished at the Shaolin monastery. You must remember that all kung-fu is based off of buddhism. This means buddhism came earlier and since it came from India, the flow of knowledge most probably created kung-fu. Although different Chinese fighting techniques may have been already present, those at Shaolin most probably stemnmed from the knowledge brought forth by the Indian monk. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/118 "2008-05-16T16:39:13Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Fear is not instinctual, it is learned and can be unlearned. As people grow older and wiser they fear less, many who feared spiders, snakes, the dark, no longer do so because of knowledge of their fears showed them unfounded. [/QUOTE] Phobias can definitely be overcome, I agree. Specific fears can be dealt with. Fear itself [is he still posting? If so, hi!] is most certainty instinctual, and unless you can provide cites showing that animals and human infants never feel fear until they somehow “learn” it, I’m not going to believe any assertion of yours to the contrary. I am positive you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/119 "2008-05-16T17:17:58Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] [http://www.martial-arts-info.com/comment/120/352](http://www.martial-arts-info.com/comment/120/352) [/QUOTE] I have trained (as mentioned) in the following martial arts;[ul][li]Judo - founded by Jigaro Kano in 1882. ([cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo)). Kano was an educator, not a monk. [_]Jujutsu - an indigenous art created by samurai as a battlefield art ([cite](http://www.usjjf.org/articles/jujitsuP1.htm)) [_]wing tsun - there you are not too far off - the origins of wing tsun are legends, but it is attributed to a Buddhist nun,([cite](http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/vingtsun_history.htm)), although many historians attribute the arts’ development to political revolutionaries [_]Shotokan karate - brought to Japan by Gichin Funakoshi from Okinawa. Funakoshi was not a monk, he was a school teacher ([cite](http://www.natkd.com/shotokan_karate.htm)) [_]tae kwon do - based on indigenous Korean arts such as _subak_ and developed to its modern form by military people ([cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo))[\*]aikido - also based on jujitsu - Daito ryu aiki-jujutsu, to be specific. The style with which I have the most experience is primarily concerned with self-defense applications.([cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshinkan)). [/ul][/li]Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998/120 "2008-05-16T18:29:33Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] IIn WWII the most decorated hero was Audie Murphy, probably the most decorated hero ever, he charged machine guns, and fought off hundreds of Germans in order to save the lives of his fellow soldiers. He was not motivated by fear either. When asked if he was afraid, he replied: “I never considered I could get killed.” In summary: there is no place for fear in combat or civilian life, it leads to anger, and then to hate, which is detrimental to the holder and not the recipient. Our task is to understand ourselves and eliminate fear by replacing it with caring, and compassion. I also realize what I have said is not the standard of our society, it is the spiritual path. [/QUOTE] "War stories can also be much more honest than the average western. If a western hero ever showed signs of fright he would be laughed off the screen, even though he comes up against a life-and-death matter. He can be tense—but not scared. However, put the same leading man in a uniform, transfer himfrom a western street to the Western Front—give him a rifle instead of a six-shooter—and if he shows fear the audience understands him; they sympathize and he can do everything up to running away without losing a fan. Maybe this comes about because war, at one time or another, has been so close to most of our population today. There are few men who face battle who won’t admit they have experienced fear, and they know, in true life, the line between being a hero or a coward is a fine one. Perhaps some of the most ‘adult’ westerns will be brave enough someday to show the hero turn coward—without losing his audience. Some are progressing in this direction, and I was pretty tickled a few weeks back when I saw big Matt Dillon knock a fellow down, then haul off and kick him for good measure. I do admit they made the poor fellow thoroughly despicable by having had him previously do the same thing to poor Matt. And to make sure you hate him, he also kicked his girlfriend. But this is the first time I ever saw a TV western hero give complete vent to his feelings. Maybe fear can be more acceptably presented in a war story because people realize few men are fighting because they want to, whereas in everything except prison pictures, men are there because they came of their own accord. We didn’t have to abide by any rules of society while making ‘Incident.’ It was just one Union soldier against a Southern soldier—one life against another. There’s understanding for both and pity for them. I’m sure you’ll understand because that’s how it was—and human beings were just as afraid and brave during the Civil War as they were afraid and brave in every war since." Audie Murphy, WAR AND WESTERNS: America’s Most Decorated Soldier-Turned-Actor Tells How Fear And Bravery Go Together— 1958 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unfortunate-effect-of-the-negative-stereotype-ed-title/448998.md?page=7)