# The United States and the Scandinavian Utopia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2016, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067 "2016-12-07T00:15:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/21 "2016-12-07T18:04:27Z")
There’s a certain paradox whereby the political ideology that advocates diversity, works best in the absence of diversity. Actually, I may be guilty of America-projecting here. Does the liberalism of Iceland and Sweden, etc. take the form of ‘Diversity is good’ liberalism like here in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/22 "2016-12-07T18:35:17Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Norway and Denmark aren’t exactly peacenik countries. Sweden is really the outlier. Well, [according to at least one web site](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html), Denmark and Norway are 71st and 72nd, respectively, on the list of countries sorted by proportional military spending. Sweden was the 84th. Less than Romania, more than New Zealand… I dunno: that neighborhood looks fairly peacenik to me. One measure I wasn’t able to find was how many troops various countries are sending to fight in foreign wars. I’d love to see figures on Denmark, Norway, and Sweden, as far as service members in, say, the Iraq wars, Afghanistan, or today in hot spots. In any case, all three countries are spending much more than the U.S. on domestic comfort, and are certainly reaping the peace dividend. I wish the U.S. would participate in this a little more, and buy a little fewer warships. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/23 "2016-12-07T21:22:42Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, [according to at least one web site](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html), Denmark and Norway are 71st and 72nd, respectively, on the list of countries sorted by proportional military spending. Sweden was the 84th. > > Less than Romania, more than New Zealand… I dunno: that neighborhood looks fairly peacenik to me. > > One measure I wasn’t able to find was how many troops various countries are sending to fight in foreign wars. I’d love to see figures on Denmark, Norway, and Sweden, as far as service members in, say, the Iraq wars, Afghanistan, or today in hot spots. > > In any case, all three countries are spending much more than the U.S. on domestic comfort, and are certainly reaping the peace dividend. I wish the U.S. would participate in this a little more, and buy a little fewer warships. I don’t know if spending is the best metric. Sure the US has the most powerful military, but I’ll guess the benefit/cost ratio is much lower, especially with F-35s and Zumwalts in the mix. We could probably maintain the same military for much cheaper with some oversight in the mix. I was referring to the fact that Sweden has maintained its neutrality for some time, whereas Norway is one of the staunchest supporters of NATO, and has been since the beginning. And Denmark committed fairly strongly to Afghanistan and Iraq wars - not as much as UK or Australia, but still substantially. Granted neutrality only has some correlation with peacefulness - Switzerland is the poster boy of neutrality, and generally supports the “peace through force” doctrine. And Sweden still does have a military, unlike Iceland. [This is from 2011](https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2009/sep/21/afghanistan-troop-numbers-nato-data), so I don’t know if it’s a typical year or not, but while the 3 Scandinavian countries didn’t send a huge number of troops to Afghanistan (\<1% of the total), Denmark sent more than rather militarized Korea, and less than “peaceful” Canada (by about 4 fold as weighted by total troops). I guess my point is that they’re all fairly peaceful countries, but not the maypole-and-pacifism image that some people imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/24 "2016-12-07T21:41:46Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > . . . I guess my point is that they’re all fairly peaceful countries, but not the maypole-and-pacifism image that some people imagine. Fair enough, and I certainly wasn’t aware of some of what you noted, so ignorance fought, education advanced, and the world is a better place. 🙂 I really do want the U.S. to reap a peace dividend. One problem with this is that it will be slightly harmful to places that depend on military spending (I live in San Diego.) Also, it will increase the unemployment rate – and, worse, all those guys with military service will be ahead of those of us who don’t when it comes to getting employed! (I don’t begrudge that too much…but it does harm me.) Sweden, Great Britain, the U.S… It’s time for us to step back and accept our role as a major power, but not the world’s single greatest power. A strong alliance with Europe will serve to keep us (all) safe. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/25 "2016-12-08T00:43:22Z")
I always find it interesting when someone wants to compare our education system to Finland’s, or our criminal justice system to Sweden’s. Of course size and diversity matter. You know which states in the US have the lowest imprisonment rates and highest education attainment? Minnesota. Montana. Wyoming. Maine. Vermont. New Hampshire. Another key factor I think might get overlooked is population density. Japan is a relatively small, very homogeneous country. And it’s not a bad place at all, but not the “utopia” of Scandinavia. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/26 "2016-12-08T01:56:34Z")
Wait … there’s individual _cities_ in the USA bigger than Sweden … How many tax dollars collected in Los Angeles go to pay for social programs in Alabama? How many tax kronas collected in Sweden go to pay for social programs in The Ukraine? The poor in Mississippi are a hell of a lot better off than the poor in Bessarabia … ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/27 "2016-12-08T04:38:03Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I think in a few decades, we will look back at the argument of “the reason that we can’t have nice things is that there are too many different colors of people in our society” and shake our heads in shame. That reason may eventually go away, but only when race ceases to become an issue in society. But then we’ll still have regional differences. In the US, the main thing preventing social democracy isn’t whites vs. minorities, it’s urban whites vs. rural whites. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/28 "2016-12-08T15:38:55Z")
Yes, diversity doesn’t just mean racial diversity. There is religious diversity, cultural diversity, income diversity, and so on. Racial diversity is just the one that I guess is most visible. To think social challenges in the US are all the result of different colors of people is inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/29 "2016-12-08T16:16:41Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Wait … there’s individual _cities_ in the USA bigger than Sweden … Minor point I know, but you are quite wrong there. New York City is the largest city in the US according to an estimate in 2015 census at 8.5 million (the census in 2010 said 8.1 million). > **[List of United States cities by population](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population)** > > Download coordinates as: > Population > This is a list of the most populous incorporated places of the United States. As defined by the United States Census Bureau, an incorporated place includes cities, towns, villages, boroughs, and municipalities.\[a\] A few exceptional census-designated places (CDPs) are also included in the Census Bureau's listing of incorporated places.\[b\] Consolidated city-counties represent a distinct type of government that includes the entire population of a county, or c... Sweden has just shy of 10 million inhabitants: > **[Sweden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden)** > > – in Europe (green & dark grey)– in the European Union (green)  –  \[Legend\] Sweden,\[f\] formally the Kingdom of Sweden,\[g\]\[h\] is a Nordic country located on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe. It borders Norway to the west and north, and Finland to the east. > At 450,295 square kilometres (173,860 sq mi), Sweden is the largest Nordic country and the fifth-largest country in Europe. The capital and largest city is Stockholm. Sweden has a population of 10.5 million, and a low population... ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/30 "2016-12-08T16:21:21Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > It appears to be a matter of not even comprehending why would someone want to move to Sweden who is neither a Swede nor an asylum-seeker (even moving there with your Swedish spouse is perceived by many as astounding) and, as a consequence, of the whole bureaucracy for immigration being geared toward asylum seekers. Note that this doesn’t mean everybody has that mindset; only that enough numbers are, that they drive the bureaucracy in that direction. > > I worked on location in Sweden between June of 2014 and September of 2015, both included. “On location” means I wasn’t paid from Sweden (thank God, as I wasn’t able to open a bank account there). I’m a EU citizen. I wasn’t allowed to do the most basic things by myself due to the lack of a Swedish Tax/ID Number: I couldn’t even sign up for Swedish lessons, those also required the Number. Swedes would tell me “oh, Spain! I went there for Erasmus / to spend the summer / to visit my cousin who was there doing Erasmus and it was So Nice! I couldn’t believe it when they took me to get a local phone number and a bank account!” Well, I couldn’t believe how difficult it was to get those same things, but hey; bureaucracy, like all monsters, must be fed. When I tried to get a Swedish ID Number, I was given a form (in English; it was available in several languages) where among other things I could select if I wanted communication with me to be in several possible languages, including English. Communication always required me to hound down the gent handling my case; every single written item he sent me was in Swedish. And after more than half a year of sitting on his ass, his response was “you must speak with the asylum people for assistance”. Some of my Swedish coworkers facepalmed so hard it actually hurt. > > The US is the only one of the countries where I’ve lived that came close to making the paperwork so difficult, but in the US I got lucky in that the first time I entered the country it was as a university student: I had my provisional SSN within a couple of days of setting foot in the country, the permanent one in less than a month. To be honest I think you were just extremely unlucky. Yes, it was some time ago, but my experience with the personnummer was exactly like yours with the SSN. I got a temporary number within days and the full one after about a month. I have many friends here that are still employed “back home” and not locally. None of them have any issues. Well, apart from the Brits lamenting that they are still paid in the UK as the GBP is so weak against the SEK right now (yay Brexit). ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/31 "2016-12-08T16:40:32Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Minor point I know, but you are quite wrong there. > > New York City is the largest city in the US according to an estimate in 2015 census at 8.5 million (the census in 2010 said 8.1 million). > [List of United States cities by population - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population) > > Sweden has just shy of 10 million inhabitants: > [Sweden - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden) The NYC metropolitan area has a population of roughly 20 million - [New York metropolitan area - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_metropolitan_area#Metropolitan_Statistical_Area) ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/32 "2016-12-08T16:44:00Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > The NYC metropolitan area has a population of roughly 20 million - [New York metropolitan area - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_metropolitan_area#Metropolitan_Statistical_Area) From the very beginning of your own cite: > [@](#): > > The New York metropolitan area, also referred to as the Tri-State Area, includes the most populous city in the United States (New York City); Long Island and the Mid- and Lower Hudson Valley in the state of New York; the five largest cities in New Jersey (Newark – the largest city in New Jersey – Jersey City, Paterson, Elizabeth, and Edison) and their vicinities; six of the seven largest cities in Connecticut (Bridgeport – the largest city in Connecticut – New Haven, Stamford, Waterbury, Norwalk, and Danbury) and their vicinities; and five counties in northeastern Pennsylvania. I count twelve cities mentioned there. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/33 "2016-12-08T19:02:54Z")
Diverse countries have UHC and maternity leave, in fact many if not most advanced countries do, so that’s not a particularly compelling explanation for their absence in America. It’s not obvious that if everyone in America turned into a white liberal that the fundamental power structures would change, absent a sustained political movement. I did enjoy reading a quite fanciful CT awhile ago that America orchestrated the Middle East migration crisis so that Europe would eventually, using the logic in this thread, dismantle its welfare apparatus and thereby quell domestic clamoring for emulation of their social policies. If you look around American conservative communities you’ll certainly find those who are outraged that minorities and outgroup members are benefiting from their tax dollars, though I doubt they would turn into socialists if they knew it would be helping their own tribe members instead. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/34 "2016-12-08T20:08:48Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > The NYC metropolitan area has a population of roughly 20 million - [New York metropolitan area - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_metropolitan_area#Metropolitan_Statistical_Area) A “metro area” is very different than a city. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/35 "2016-12-08T20:12:24Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Diverse countries have UHC and maternity leave, in fact many if not most advanced countries do, so that’s not a particularly compelling explanation for their absence in America. It’s not obvious that if everyone in America turned into a white liberal that the fundamental power structures would change, absent a sustained political movement. I did enjoy reading a quite fanciful CT awhile ago that America orchestrated the Middle East migration crisis so that Europe would eventually, using the logic in this thread, dismantle its welfare apparatus and thereby quell domestic clamoring for emulation of their social policies. > > If you look around American conservative communities you’ll certainly find those who are outraged that minorities and outgroup members are benefiting from their tax dollars, though I doubt they would turn into socialists if they knew it would be helping their own tribe members instead. Why should a species that reproduces sexually and doesn’t have huge swarms of sterile workers like an ant colony favor policy that promotes any other group at their own expense? Why do people expect biology to cease mattering? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/36 "2016-12-08T20:14:09Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > If you look around American conservative communities you’ll certainly find those who are outraged that minorities and outgroup members are benefiting from their tax dollars, though I doubt they would turn into socialists if they knew it would be helping their own tribe members instead. Absolutely. The point is to take help _away_ from people, not to _give_ it. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/37 "2016-12-08T20:44:02Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I worked on location in Sweden between June of 2014 and September of 2015, both included. “On location” means I wasn’t paid from Sweden (thank God, as I wasn’t able to open a bank account there). I’m a EU citizen. I wasn’t allowed to do the most basic things by myself due to the lack of a Swedish Tax/ID Number: I couldn’t even sign up for Swedish lessons, those also required the Number. Swedes would tell me “oh, Spain! I went there for Erasmus / to spend the summer / to visit my cousin who was there doing Erasmus and it was So Nice! I couldn’t believe it when they took me to get a local phone number and a bank account!” Well, I couldn’t believe how difficult it was to get those same things, but hey; bureaucracy, like all monsters, must be fed. When I tried to get a Swedish ID Number, I was given a form (in English; it was available in several languages) where among other things I could select if I wanted communication with me to be in several possible languages, including English. Communication always required me to hound down the gent handling my case; every single written item he sent me was in Swedish. And after more than half a year of sitting on his ass, his response was “you must speak with the asylum people for assistance”. Some of my Swedish coworkers facepalmed so hard it actually hurt. > > The US is the only one of the countries where I’ve lived that came close to making the paperwork so difficult, but in the US I got lucky in that the first time I entered the country it was as a university student: I had my provisional SSN within a couple of days of setting foot in the country, the permanent one in less than a month. The red tape must be bad, if a Spanish person is compaining about it 😉 : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXWZ3uAEKsw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXWZ3uAEKsw) (To be fair, I suspect that bureaucracy always seems worse in another country, compared to the bureaucracy that you grew up with. I have known people coming to the UK being exasperated at the way we do things here.) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/38 "2016-12-08T21:12:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Size matters too, because size means diversity. There are no large countries without sharply differing political opinions by region. That’s why all large countries that are democracies choose to decentralize power more than smaller countries. The people of Alabama and New York will never agree, so most policy areas are left to them to decide for themselves. Same goes for Alberta vs. Ontario in Canada. Canada isn’t Scandinavia even though a lot of Canadians, possibly a majority, would like it to be a Scandi-style utopia, simply because Canada is too large and too diverse to be governed that way. Your basic facts are true but your conclusion is wrong. I would cite Canada as the _ **opposite** _ of what you’re claiming. Yes, it’s geographically large, and the population is very diverse, especially in major urban centers, and in many ways the culture is different in the different regions – the Maritimes, Quebec, Ontario, Alberta, and BC are all notably distinct, and then there’s the prairies and the northern territories. And yet, there are strong ties in shared social values, one of the chief ones being precisely the form of social democracy cited in the OP – for instance, universal health care completely decoupled from ability to pay, a strong social safety net, income security, and progressive social policies. All of which are closer to Scandinavian policies than American ones, though not always to the same degree. Which seems to prove that culture is more important than size or diversity in establishing social policy. It also disproves the oft-cited claim that the US is “too big” to implement something like universal health care, which is perhaps the ultimate expression of social solidarity. It isn’t “too big”, because programs like that can be administered by states, but under federal direction to ensure national standards. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/39 "2016-12-08T23:38:30Z")
That’s why I’m puzzled by the Krugman point quoted earlier. It is not obvious to me that you cannot have a generous social safety net _and_ a generous immigration policy. Canada has both. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2016, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067/40 "2016-12-08T23:43:39Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > (To be fair, I suspect that bureaucracy always seems worse in another country, compared to the bureaucracy that you grew up with. I have known people coming to the UK being exasperated at the way we do things here.) I was getting my Driver’s licence renewed a couple of years ago and a fellow from Colorado who had just moved to Canada was in at the same time. He was getting his car licence, car insurance, and combined driver’s licence/driver insurance, all from the government insurance/DMV equivalent. Took him about ten minutes, from coming in the door to leaving with all his licences and insurance up-to-date. As he left he said: “You guys up here may be socialists, but you’re pretty efficient socialists.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-and-the-scandinavian-utopia/774067.md?page=3)