# "The United States has killed more people than any other country on Earth" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 10, 2020, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230 "2020-03-10T22:41:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2020, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/41 "2020-03-12T17:39:56Z")
Didn’t the 1918 flu pandemic originate in Kansas? That might put the US over the top. How about tobacco production? That has to be worth several million deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/42 "2020-03-12T18:23:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Romans also didn’t have an ideological agenda. They didn’t try to destroy the local religion or social system. We think of them as bloodthirsty because one of the only exceptions was their persecution of Christians - and Christians ended up writing the history books. Have you never heard of the genocides against the Etruscans and the Carthaginians? Cato wasn’t talking about conquest when he said Carthago delenda est, he wanted them wiped from the Earth, and he got his wish. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2020, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/43 "2020-03-12T20:33:18Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Didn’t the 1918 flu pandemic originate in Kansas? That might put the US over the top. How about tobacco production? That has to be worth several million deaths. Well, if we are going there then we need to seriously pump up China, and Europe as well. There have been waves of plague originating from China that have impacted Europe going back to the Roman empire, if not before. European diseases wiped out much of the native populations in the Americas as well as several other places across the globe. Even if you wanted to try and lay the ‘Spanish flu’ completely on the US you are going to merely move us from below the top 20 to somewhere in the top 10…but we still won’t be number 1 on this sort of list. No matter how you torture the logic, we just aren’t going to be in the same league as countries like China or even our European buddies. We haven’t been around nearly as long, and basically we are just underachievers compared to the ones at the top of any sort of facts based list. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/44 "2020-03-12T20:45:39Z")
Pollution? Fast food? Murder ballads? C’mon! It’s like you guys don’t even believe in American exceptionalism! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2020, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/45 "2020-03-12T20:53:11Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Pollution? Fast food? Murder ballads? C’mon! It’s like you guys don’t even believe in American exceptionalism! We can’t be number 1 at everything. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/46 "2020-03-13T04:04:34Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > Have you never heard of the genocides against the Etruscans and the Carthaginians? Did Romans have ideological disputes with Etruscans and Carthaginians or was it more like eliminating the bothersome? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/47 "2020-03-13T05:26:55Z")
Don’t forget that in the Ukraine alone Stalin supposedly deliberately starved to death about 3M peasants who were resisting collectivisation… on top of everything else. Adolph outright murdered 6M civilians without even counting war casualties. It’s hard for the US to catch up with those numbers. Destroying two whole cities in a flash only netted the USA between 129,000 to 226,000 civilians. I recall reading that the slave trade to the West Indies was so large because any plantation slaves there were pretty much worked to death - deliberately or by default - within a few years. Do you count both sides’ casualties against a power at war? Should the USA include in the count soldiers and sailors killed in Pearl Harbor? No matter how you calculate the loss the USA is way back of the pack. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/48 "2020-03-13T05:38:15Z")
> [@XT](#): > > We can’t be number 1 at everything. 😛 Some of us think the US is a big ol’ no. 2. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/49 "2020-03-13T06:30:19Z")
> [@XT](#): > > We can’t be number 1 at everything. 😛 But just wait till the US says _Hold our (collective) beer!_ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/50 "2020-03-13T07:27:51Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > Have you never heard of the genocides against the Etruscans and the Carthaginians? Cato wasn’t talking about conquest when he said Carthago delenda est, he wanted them wiped from the Earth, and he got his wish. The Romans destroyed those nations. But they didn’t kill off all the people who had been living in them. A modern analogy would be what happened to Nazi Germany after WWII. We eliminated Nazi Germany but we didn’t eliminate the Germans. Cato understood this distinction. He spoke of Carthaginem being destroyed not Carthaginienses. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/51 "2020-03-13T10:16:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Romans destroyed those nations. But they didn’t kill off all the people who had been living in them. > > A modern analogy would be what happened to Nazi Germany after WWII. We eliminated Nazi Germany but we didn’t eliminate the Germans. > > Cato understood this distinction. He spoke of Carthaginem being destroyed not Carthaginienses. They murdered an estimated 85% of the Carthaginian population and sold the rest into slavery, where they were often worked to death through hard labour. That is genocide by any rational definition, and in fact historians consider it to have been the first deliberate genocide in history. ---
**Author:** ![Yarlagab](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ee7513/32.png) [@Yarlagab](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yarlagab)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/52 "2020-03-13T16:41:57Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > They murdered an estimated 85% of the Carthaginian population and sold the rest into slavery, where they were often worked to death through hard labour. That is genocide by any rational definition, and in fact historians consider it to have been the first deliberate genocide in history. The thing is that this procedure - sacking the city, killing a portion of inhabitants (often mostly adult men) and selling the rest into slavery - wasn’t exactly something unusual at the time - it was rather common after sieges where the besieged city refused to surrender, and it was not exactly done for any ideological reasons. However, some of these sacks could be more violent than others. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/53 "2020-03-13T17:28:51Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > They murdered an estimated 85% of the Carthaginian population and sold the rest into slavery, where they were often worked to death through hard labour. That is genocide by any rational definition, and in fact historians consider it to have been the first deliberate genocide in history. Yes, if you take the ancient Roman sources at their word, they killed every Carthaginian, destroyed the cities brick by brick, and salted the land so nothing would ever live there again. The Romans were eager to tell everyone how total was their victory. Except that tax and trade records show that the city of Carthage was still there after the war. Which suggests that those Roman claims of total destruction might have been exaggerated. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/54 "2020-03-13T17:32:26Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > They murdered an estimated 85% of the Carthaginian population and sold the rest into slavery, where they were often worked to death through hard labour. That is genocide by any rational definition, and in fact historians consider it to have been the first deliberate genocide in history. I don’t think anyone has properly nailed down the proportion of people killed other than “a lot”, as even what the population of Carthage was is disputed. It probably is properly a genocide as a directed slaughter, but it was a rather constrained one and only applied to the _city of Carthage_ proper, not the countryside or other towns. So nearby Phoenician cities like Hadrumentum and Utica( who both supported the Roman assault on Carthage )thrived under Roman control. We’re at most talking a few hundred thousand people, depending on just how high you’re willing to accept Carthage’s population. Not nothing, but not millions. As far as I can tell there is no evidence of any widespread genocide aimed at the Etruscans. Lots of warfare and all the killing associated with that, but no directed exterminations per se. Certainly a number of later Roman gens proudly traced their descent from Etruscan forebears. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/55 "2020-03-13T18:12:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Except that tax and trade records show that the city of Carthage was still there after the war. Which suggests that those Roman claims of total destruction might have been exaggerated. No, all it means is that there were two Carthages. The city was abandoned for almost a century before it was rebuilt in 49 BC by Julius Caesar, perhaps you’ve heard of him at some point? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/56 "2020-03-13T18:13:55Z")
md2000: > [@](#): > > Adolph outright murdered 6M civilians without even counting war casualties. Actually, he murdered 16M, 6M is specificaly the number of Jews who he murdered. (This sticks in my mind from an old TV show - maybe L.A. Law? - when the lawyer grills a witness about his understanding about just how bad Nazis were. She asked him how many people died in the Holocaust, and he said 6M, and she corrected him as per the above.) ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/57 "2020-03-13T21:05:20Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > And that’s not even counting any other deaths that might be laid at Britain’s feet. I’m not saying they’re a particularly bloody empire, but they’ve had almost 1000 years to run up the score… Which history book are you reading? Depending on when you think the British empire started, it lasted at most 350 years, from about 1600 to about 1960. But the king remained a king; Victoria was queen of England and empress of India (after 1876). As for serious mayhem, in the preindustrial era the Mongols were were the most prolific killers, figures for the Soviet Union and Maoist China vary greatly but they probably share the dubious honor of “most murderous.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/58 "2020-03-13T23:21:50Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > No, all it means is that there were two Carthages. The city was abandoned for almost a century before it was rebuilt in 49 BC by Julius Caesar, perhaps you’ve heard of him at some point? Yes, I’ve heard of Julius Caesar. My knowledge of history goes a little deeper than reading wikipedia articles. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/59 "2020-03-14T20:45:18Z")
> [@XT](#): > > We can’t be number 1 at everything. 😛 Not with _that_ attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230/60 "2020-03-15T05:06:55Z")
> [@XT](#): > > We can’t be number 1 at everything. Well, we could if we wanted to be. We have all those nuclear weapons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other-country-on-earth/849230.md?page=4)