# The United States of America **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 27, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861 "2005-08-27T13:50:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/21 "2005-08-27T17:39:40Z")
I should add that my post above was not meant to be a free trade argument. I’m yet to be convinced that completely free trade based on comparative advantage is the best solution for the world’s economy, and especially for the world’s poor. But if you constantly spout the rhetoric of free trade and its benefits—like the US government does—then you have an obligation to practice what you preach, most especially with countries like Canada and Mexico who have actually signed free trade agreements with you. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Tiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Mama\_Tiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Tiger)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/22 "2005-08-27T17:56:57Z")
No, no, no, **mhendo** , you clearly don’t understand – it’s free trade for US to sell to THEM, but we have every right to impose restrictions, sanctions, or anything else we damn well feel like when it comes time for THEM to sell to US. Where’s the pukey smiley when I need it? My only dog in this fight was that I think the OP shouldn’t have been surprised by the US’s latest abrogation of an agreement. Upset, yes; outraged, probably; disgusted, sure. Just not surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/23 "2005-08-27T18:00:42Z")
From the Calgary Herald, August 25, 2005, reporter Andrew Duffy: > [@](#): > > **Wilkins says talks, not trade war, needed** > > U.S. Ambassador David Wilkins says Canadian politicians should stop their “emotional tirades” and order the country’s trade representatives back to the bargaining table to reach a final settlement on softwood lumber. > … > Wilkins said Canadian officials should embrace negotiations rather than trade litigation, to settle the softwood dispute. Otherwise, he suggested, they risk a trade war with multiple fronts. > > “I don’t think we need to go down another avenue, but we could,” Wilkins warned. “We could start talking about import barriers by Canada on certain goods, like dairy and egg products and things of that nature, and broadcast regulations that are exempt from NAFTA.” > … > Wilkins conceded that the Canadian position may have been strengthened by the most recent NAFTA ruling, bu it doesn’t settle the question, he said. > > Martin has called the U.S. position on softwood lumber “untenable” and Industry Minister David Emerson has started to draw up a list of U.S. goods on which to impose tariffs in retaliation for the American action. > > Wilkins said Thursday a trade war is not in the best interests of either country given that the U.S buys 86 per cent of Canada’s exports. That’s not even a thinly-veiled threat; that’s “If you guys keep bitching about the softwood lumber, we’re going to break you.” So far we’ve got natural gas, oil, and electricity going to the U.S. I believe we also supply a lot of fresh water, too. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/24 "2005-08-27T18:05:07Z")
From **feattherlou** ’s article: > [@](#): > > Wilkins said Canadian officials should embrace negotiations rather than trade litigation, to settle the softwood dispute. The hubris is unbelievable. When it’s not trying to bully people with threats of economic retaliation, the United States is one of the most frequent litigants under international free trade agreements. ---
**Author:** ![Ludy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Ludy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/25 "2005-08-27T18:09:39Z")
> [@zuma](#): > > Oooh…you’re just stomping your hooves, aren’t you? > > It’s silly to get worked up about the minutae of trade agreements which people well above your station are dealing with. You don’t have one whit of understanding about internation trade and treaties. You can’t see the forest for the trees. It’s people in a class way way above you playing a chess game… I kind of wonder who the winner will be. Fascinating stuff. You need to visit my hometown; I grew up in a small town in Central BC that relies heavily on the lumber industry. Growing up my friends parents were getting laid off because the mills couldn’t make ends meet. This issue is VERY important to those of a lower class like you mentioned, and they follow it very closely. It is in their better interest to know exactly what is happening, and yes the humble logger is as involved in that chess game as the politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/26 "2005-08-27T18:19:20Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > So far we’ve got natural gas, oil, and electricity going to the U.S. I believe we also supply a lot of fresh water, too. No water in significant quantities that I’m aware of. If you count the Red River, I’d bet that we actually get more fresh water from the US than we send south. I think that Canada, on the whole, benefits more from NAFTA than the US does, and hence has more to lose in a trade war. (But it’s not a zero sum game - the US comes out ahead with NAFTA too.) However, when the question comes to who can hurt who more with a trade war, I think Canada has the upper hand there as well, because the energy exports are utterly irreplaceable in the short and medium terms. They wanna play hardball, I say let’s play hardball. No pansy-assed import tariffs on California wine like I’ve heard mentioned. Go straight for the jugular. If this makes US readers feel a tad uneasy, good. Write your elected representatives and tell them you don’t want to play hardball with the Canadians on trade issues, but would rather just stick with the agreed upon rules set out in NAFTA. It’s in everyone’s best interest. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/27 "2005-08-27T18:21:51Z")
I’m _hoping_ that **zuma** was simply being sarcastic but happened to fail to convey the actual object of the sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/28 "2005-08-27T18:42:11Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > If this makes US readers feel a tad uneasy, good. Write your elected representatives and tell them you don’t want to play hardball with the Canadians on trade issues, but would rather just stick with the agreed upon rules set out in NAFTA. It’s in everyone’s best interest. I say you guys should kick our ass. We need a good asskicking these days. The Republicans in power sure don’t give a fuck about what I have to say, and the Democrats are too busy bitching about a goddamn video game to worry about anything important. Fuck, maybe I should move to Edmonton and harrass Bioware until they give me a job. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/29 "2005-08-27T18:42:40Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > They wanna play hardball, I say let’s play hardball. No pansy-assed import tariffs on California wine like I’ve heard mentioned. Go straight for the jugular. I’ve heard from reputable sources that Canada has stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, and that Paul Martin once gassed some moose. In addition, the Canadian people have been suffering for centuries under a despotic monarchy, and thirst for true democracy. Sources also indicate that a Candian once spoke to Osama bin Laden. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/30 "2005-08-27T19:10:43Z")
> [@sturmhauke](#): > > I say you guys should kick our ass. We need a good asskicking these days. The Republicans in power sure don’t give a fuck about what I have to say, and the Democrats are too busy bitching about a goddamn video game to worry about anything important. > > Fuck, maybe I should move to Edmonton and harrass Bioware until they give me a job. More accurately (and it’s the same in Canada, and every democracy, I suspect) the Republicans are too busy trying to hold onto power, and the Democrats are too busy trying to get into power to actually do any governing. But that’s not important right now. I was going to say, **mhendo** , that that is a good comparison for what happens in Canada with beef and softwood lumber (and fishing industries, too). ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/31 "2005-08-27T19:19:08Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > An agreement with America isn’t worth the paper its printed on. To be fair, we do print our agreements on some pretty nice paper. ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/32 "2005-08-27T19:19:54Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > I’ve heard from reputable sources that Canada has stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, and that Paul Martin once gassed some moose. In addition, the Canadian people have been suffering for centuries under a despotic monarchy, and thirst for true democracy. Sources also indicate that a Candian once spoke to Osama bin Laden. :dubious: And don’t forget some parts speak French so you would have world opinion on your side there (well all of it that counts anyway). And it’s close, so you save money there. And it has loads of oil. Perhaps you should deport some Muslims there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Nanoda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nanoda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanoda)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/33 "2005-08-27T20:21:39Z")
Well shit. Up until now I’d been giving Wilkins the benefit of the doubt that he’d be better than that fucker Cellucci, but I guess not. As one employed in the Alberta oilfield, I’d like to say I’m more than willing to have my hours cut back for a bit if it means we’re actually going to stick up for ourselves for once. I’d love to see how fast we get our 5 billion back when the U.S. is missing over 2 billion barrels of Canadian petroleum a day. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/34 "2005-08-27T20:56:17Z")
> [@Nanoda](#): > > over 2 **b** illion barrels of Canadian petroleum a day. Damn, Alberta’s got even more oil than I realized! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Nanoda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nanoda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanoda)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/35 "2005-08-27T21:46:33Z")
\Damn you! Make that 5 **T** RILLION dollars!\ ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2005, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/36 "2005-08-28T04:03:20Z")
I just have to ask what Cellucci did that was so bad. He used to be my governor, and I don’t recall him arousing any terribly strong emotions then. Since then, he apparently avoided causing armed conflict between the two countries, which would probably be the only way that our ambassador to Canada would ever get media coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2005, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/37 "2005-08-28T04:18:27Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Damn, Alberta’s got even more oil than I realized! 😛 We got a lot of oil. We’re (Canada, that is, but I believe it’s mostly Alberta) is the number one supplier of crude oil and oil products to the United States, and the Alberta Tar Sands are one of the largest known reserves of oil at this point. Paul Cellucci is not well-liked in Canada due to his pronouncements about what Canada was supposed to do to keep the U.S. happy. From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Cellucci): > [@](#): > > In April 2003 Cellucci was condemned in many Canadian media sources when he spoke out against Canada for its lack of support for the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. > > He also earned the ire of many Canadians for his repeated warnings about the political consequences for Canada if it opted to not join the U.S. missile defence program, or pass a bill decriminalizing marijuana. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2005, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/38 "2005-08-28T04:25:16Z")
This is just politics, and all countries play the stupid game. Senators and Congressmen in districts that have sheep farmers, or lumber industries, or other affected industries get leaned on very hard by their constituents. Their careers depend on them saying and doing what these people want. They get into Congress, and start wheeling and dealing and pressuring their fellow politicians, and this is the kind of crap that spews out. Canada’s no different. We’ve been criticized for not meeting our NATO commitments, but we don’t do anything about it. We’ve not been above trying to sneak subsidies and tariffs into the international trade market. The duty schedule is twisted and complex, made so by the horsetrading of the politicians who came up with it. In this particular case, the U.S. is wrong. It should stop trying to strongarm Canada with threats, lest we take them up on the challenge. Alberta is sitting on hundreds of billions of barrels of oil, and we don’t mind playing hardball if we have to. There are other customers in the world for it. I wonder if this isn’t the result of our government’s repeated slaps at the U.S., though? Not just our opposition to the war, but general hostility, our politician’s insults, etc. George Bush gets criticised for his diplomacy hurting America’s reputation. Well, our government has been doing a great job pissing off our largest trading partner. This is the kind of stuff that comes back, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/39 "2005-08-28T04:50:09Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > I still think we should slap a steep export tax on natural gas and watch the Americans suddenly discover that NAFTA is maybe a good thing after all. It’s not like it’s feasible for them to replace the NG we supply from anywhere else. That would essentially mean putting Albertans out of work to prove a point. Maybe if it was an industry spread out across the country, but in this case we’d really be screwing one particular region. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2005, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/40 "2005-08-28T06:30:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That would essentially mean putting Albertans out of work to prove a point. Maybe if it was an industry spread out across the country, but in this case we’d really be screwing one particular region. Natural gas is a more spread out than oil - one of the reasons I mentioned it in particular. Moreover, I’m not sure US demand for NG is elastic enough for them to actually buy any less of it. That’s another of the reasons I mentioned it. NG is a real bear to ship other than via pipeline, and there’s really no way they can meet demand without buying from us. And do you really think they’ll accept rotating blackouts to avoid paying an export tax? Because that’s the direct implication of buying less NG. I could quite possibly be convinced that we should just play nice and continue negotiations, though Og knows we’ve been doing that for years to no avail. However, if we’re going to take retaliatory measures, it makes no sense to put tariffs on wine or orange juice. If we’re going to do anything, it ought to be something which will actually apply real, significant pressure. Energy is the only thing that fits the bill. We’re not a big enough market to be a crippling loss to any of their export sectors, so it’s got to be something they’re importing, and it has to be something they can’t do without. Do you have any better ideas? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861.md?page=3)