# The United States of America **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 27, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861 "2005-08-27T13:50:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/81 "2005-08-28T21:39:39Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Except that the policy of softwood tariffs hurts the US economy far more than it helps it. There are something like 25 jobs in lumber-using industries in the US for every 1 job in the lumber-producing industry. (Read that in an editorial somewhere recently, don’t recall which paper but it was a reputable one. Maybe even WSJ.) Guess what a 27% tariff on imported softwood does to lumber-using industries? Think what the housing boom would look like without this artificial brake on it. > > Sure, there are upsides to the non-proportional Senate representation, but this doesn’t illustrate any of them. This just illustrates the undemocratic nature of setup. Same thing as when we fuck over the nation as a whole to keep Ellsworth Airforce Base open in Butt-Fucking Egypt, South Dakota. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/82 "2005-08-28T21:42:50Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The problem is some jackass pontificating on how undemocratic the US Senate is when he obviously doesn’t understand it nor care to understand it. And yet, as my re-quoting of the initial statements show, I didn’t say ‘undemocratic’, I said ‘non-proportional’. I did say ‘undemocratic’ in an offhand way in a subsequent post, but have since withdrawn that characterization **twice**. And I challenge you do point out anything in this thread which indicates a lack of understanding of your political structure. ---
**Author:** ![PastAllReason](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f07891/32.png) [@PastAllReason](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastAllReason)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/83 "2005-08-28T21:50:16Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I am also aware that certain parts of Canada are not covered with snow year-round. I’ve heard that about certain parts of the U.S. too. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2005, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/84 "2005-08-28T22:04:40Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Same thing as when we fuck over the nation as a whole to keep Ellsworth Airforce Base open in Butt-Fucking Egypt, South Dakota. That would be _Bum-fuck_ Egypt. Since this thread has dissolved into pedantic crap, I thought I might as well come on in. 😃 It is a term that appears in print in the early 1960’s and from the military. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/85 "2005-08-28T22:35:17Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > That would be _Bum-fuck_ Egypt. Since this thread has dissolved into pedantic crap, I thought I might as well come on in. 😃 > > It is a term that appears in print in the early 1960’s and from the military. Well _excuuuusssseee meeee!_ ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/86 "2005-08-28T22:58:40Z")
I thought that Bumfuck was in North Dakota. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/87 "2005-08-29T01:56:53Z")
Major article in the [Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/27/business/27nocera.ready.html) about just this issue. Uhm, in Saturday’s paper, during August, but still. ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/88 "2005-08-29T03:10:54Z")
All I can say about this is that it’s about time we had some more trade missions to Europe and South America. And we’ve got a large and growing population of Mandarin-speakers; let’s hope they can come in handy in getting our businesses trading with Asia. Enough of being disproportionately economically bound to the double-talking treaty-tearing United States. They can keep running up their zillion-dollar deficits all they like; when their economy finally collapses, let’s hope we’ve planned ahead and tied ourselves to the growing markets of the EU, Asia-Pacific, and Latin America, and decoupled ourselves from the Yanks. Enough of their threats. Enough of holding off on reasonable liberalisation of marijuana laws because we’re afraid of what the Americans will do. Enough of rolling over when they play their stupid games on the lobbied-industry product of the week, be it beef or salmon or lumber. Hitting them where it hurts (energy) is risky, but it’s about time they got the message. Natural gas will hurt Alberta a bit, but other regions, too, and it might be worth it to settle the lumber issue. Electricity could bring in-kind retaliation that will hurt power-thirsty Ontario; I’ll live will brownouts if need be. What happened to all that rhetoric about Canada and the US being best of friends? Doesn’t seem to extend any farther than their industries’ inabilities to compete with the world’s largest forests. This and the Maher Arar tripe are getting me really pissed off at that country to our south. I suppose I’ll start selecting Zuidafrikan pears and Chilean grapes over American ones at Loblaws. Not much else _I_ can do but send angry letters to DFAIT. :mad: [/angry vent] ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/89 "2005-08-29T03:25:36Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > I thought that Bumfuck was in North Dakota. No, that’s Butthump, ND, which is right across the border from Upper Rubber Boot, MN, and just down from Sweet Fuck All, Manitoba. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/90 "2005-08-29T03:36:33Z")
**wolfstu** , here in Alberta, I am hoping that we have learned an extremely valuable lesson from the beef border closing, and will no longer continue to put all of our eggs in one fragile basket. Unfortunately, politics seems to be almost completely reactive instead of proactive, and we might get absolutely nowhere with diversifying our markets. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/91 "2005-08-29T03:47:33Z")
Thing is, you can talk diversification of markets all you like, but the fact will remain that all the other markets are on different continents. It’s not like it’s an accident that most of our exports go south. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/92 "2005-08-29T03:50:12Z")
Great article, **Mehitabel**. It takes an American vacationing in Canada to notice that we’re really not thrilled with the U.S. right now, but it’s a start. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/93 "2005-08-29T03:55:01Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Thing is, you can talk diversification of markets all you like, but the fact will remain that all the other markets are on different continents. It’s not like it’s an accident that most of our exports go south. That is, unfortunately, completely true. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/94 "2005-08-29T04:10:09Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > It is certainly true that governments have, for a long time, made a habit of reneging on or ignoring treaties and contracts signed with weaker parties. But when it comes to the most rank hypocrisy in the modern era, American government attitudes to free trade must rank near the top. > . Naw, not even close. Sure, the Adminstration hasn’t always done what was promised, but other nations have sometimes completely flat-out reneged on EVERYTHING, debts and all- and others are even more hypocritical when it comes to how they handle their trade policies. Don’t get me wrong- the USA isn’t blameless in this regard at all, but I doubt if we are even in the 'top ten". My favorite example is the Government of Mexico always crying about how we treat Mexican “illegals” and wanting an "open border’- and comparing that to how Mexico treats dudes who come over their southern border. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/95 "2005-08-29T04:29:27Z")
Gorsnak, I don’t want any hard feelings & I’m sure you don’t either. Your comments about proportional representation have gotten me wondering something along the lines of GD material. I’ll start a thread regarding it in GD. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/96 "2005-08-29T04:49:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Naw, not even close. Sure, the Adminstration hasn’t always done what was promised, but other nations have sometimes completely flat-out reneged on EVERYTHING, debts and all- and others are even more hypocritical when it comes to how they handle their trade policies. Don’t get me wrong- the USA isn’t blameless in this regard at all, but I doubt if we are even in the 'top ten". When you factor in both their hypocrisies by the amount of power they have to put pressure on other countries in order to put hypocritical policies into action, the United States is right near the top. The US is the leading force in global trade “liberalization,” both in terms of rhetoric and in terms of political and economic pressure exerted on its behalf. It also constantly portrays itself as the leader in this regard. If America constantly claims to hold itself to the highest sstandards, then we should do no less. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_loblaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@bob\_loblaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_loblaw)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/97 "2005-08-29T06:37:15Z")
> [@](#): > > [It is primarily because of NAFTA that Canada does the bulk of its international trade with the United States. At the same time, Canada is trading less now, as a percentage of GDP, with the rest of the world than it did between Confederation and the beginning of the Depression. > > […] > > The 1990s turned out to be the slowest growing decade since the Depression. And while the economy has undergone respectable growth since 2000, the economy grew even faster in the 1950s and '60s, a period throughout which we traded relatively little. In short, there appears to be no relationship between free trade and economic growth. > > Going back even further in our history, we find few reasons for embracing free trade. From 1879, when the protectionist National Policy was first introduced, to the inauguration of the FTA in 1989, Canada turned its back on free trade. Yet, with few exceptions, the economy flourished during this 110-year period. So there is little evidence historically that free trade is a necessary ingredient of a healthy economy.]([http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050825.wcomment0825/BNStory/National/](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050825.wcomment0825/BNStory/National/)) canada has always been a trading country, but historically our trade to gdp ratio has been in the 40% range, some 20 points off the current 60% (from memory) at any rate, we need a much improved east-west trade scheme within the country and without, to offset the all-eggs-in-one-basket north-south scheme that currently dominates our economy - whether that is “free trade” or not. we also need an east-west energy scheme, which would not exclude energy exporting, but at the least provide ourselves with our own energy sources first. but that is another story all together. (although a protracted trade war with the united states - especially is we use energy as our bargaining chip - may be the necessary catalyst to build such a domestic scheme.) ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/98 "2005-08-29T12:32:45Z")
That’s what I’m saying. Companies that deal exclusively with the U.S. are guilty of taking the lazy way out. They need to look abroad and deal with _other provinces_, and deal with China too. Surely all those container ships aren’t _empty_ when they head back over the Pacific? Take some of that federal surplus and start encouraging more manufacturing in the Great White North. Companies want to build in Canada – I believe Toyota just opened a plant in Ontario rather than Arkansas because workers are more educated, and overall health costs are lower – so damn well start doing more of that, and wean us off the U.S. teat. I live in the U.S. for the moment. There are problems here (like there are everywhere), but pretending the U.S. economy will grow forever is plain stupid. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/99 "2005-08-29T13:43:34Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > That’s what I’m saying. Companies that deal exclusively with the U.S. are guilty of taking the lazy way out. They need to look abroad and deal with _other provinces_, and deal with China too. Surely all those container ships aren’t _empty_ when they head back over the Pacific? Of course Canadian companies are looking abroad. I work with a hundred different companies and they’re all looking into overseas markets. The reason U.S. trade has been so big is that that was the first logical place to start growing; it’s doesn’t mean anyone’s ignoring the opportunities in China. Canadian companies desperately want those markets, but they’re remarkably hard to work with at times. It’s simply the case that if you’re going to look abroad, the first market you should look at is the one where you can send a truck there in four hours rather than the one that requires a container ship. > [@](#): > > Take some of that federal surplus and start encouraging more manufacturing in the Great White North. Companies want to build in Canada – I believe Toyota just opened a plant in Ontario rather than Arkansas because workers are more educated, and overall health costs are lower – so damn well start doing more of that, and wean us off the U.S. teat. Where do ya think most of those Toyotas will be sold? Hint: They have stars and stripes on their flag. Woodstock was attractive to Toyota not only because of the lower health care costs and good taxes, but because it’s in the middle of the trucking center of North America, with easy access to transportation into the U.S. market. I don’t understand how building auto plants in Ontario is “Weaning us off the U.S. tit” when the entire reason we have auto plants in Ontario is to sell cars to the United States. This has been going on for years; building factories in Canada to make money off the U.S. has resulted in us enjoying a gargantuan trade surplus with the States. Even without the new Toyota assembly plant, Ontario’s the biggest automobile and auto part producer of ANY state or province, but that’s because it sells so many cars back to the USA. Logically, if you wanted to wean us off the U.S., you’d build more auto plants in Halifax and start shipping cars to Europe. Look, free trade works; there’s just no way around it. Money is just pouring in; our trade surplus is now what, a billion dollars every week? What matters is whether or not we’re smart enough to engage in fiscal and social policy decisions that will result in this money getting invested in productivity and new markets, but we should keep the money pipeline open as long as possible. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861/100 "2005-08-29T13:56:57Z")
Special interest powers are more a matter of interest than money or even local power. If Senator A really wants a piece of legislation, and Senator B doesn’t even care about the entire segment of the economy that legislation affects, Senator A has an advantage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-states-of-america/318861.md?page=6)