The United States should convert to a parliamentary system

I personally was unimpressed with Lazare’s book. His main theme was that the Constitution somehow prevented the United States government from doing things it wanted to do. But as you pointed out, Lazare’s political agenda isn’t very mainstream; regardless of how the government was set up, there wasn’t popular support for most of the ideas Lazare felt would have happened.

Lazare’s claim that a parliamentary type government is already inherent in the Constitution is also highly suspect. Lazare wrote that it would be possible for the House of Representatives, acting within a valid interpretation of the Constitution, to abolish the Presidency and take over executive powers.

Who would get these powers you propose to take from the president? And why would that not completely unbalance the system? Wouldn’t they then have their old powers PLUS the powers you are stripping from the president? Or would you institute a 4th brance of government, and simply give the stripped out powers to them?

You are talking about a piece meal approach to this. Simply stripping the president of some of his powers and granting to them to one or both of the other two branches of our government would unbalance the system. So, if you REALLY wanted to do a parliamentary system, you’d need to restructure the government from the ground up (from the local level, through the state level, to the federal level). You’d basically need to destroy the current government and rebuild a new one. Do you suppose that is do-able?

-XT

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Many misunderstandings in this thread. I’ll take on a few:

  1. Parliamentarism is the concept that the administration/government is formed by the largest constellation of parties in the Parliament (the legislative body) that are able to achieve a “declaration of confidence” from the fully seated Parliament. The administration/government is the executive body and it’s definitely separated from the legislative body. In other words, an extremist cannot be selected President or Prime Minister.

You cannot have parliamentarism without the principle of “a vote of confidence”, but you can have a multiparty system without parliamentarism. Don’t mix this up!

  1. The difference between the US system and a parliamentary system is that in the former the executive branch is elected in a different election than those elected to the legislative body. See #1.

  2. Contrary to what Zagadka implied, a parliamentary system has the same checks and balances as the US system, ie. the concept of separation of powers. Actually, this concept is more balanced in a parliamentary system because the executive branch does not have the power to kill the actions of the legislators with the veto power. See #4.

  3. In many governments the Secretaries (or Ministers if you prefer) are not elected by the people, they are selected by a person elected by the people (meaning: Secretaries don’t have to be members of the Parliament unless this is required by law). Within a parliamentary system such an unelected person who performs badly can be forced to resign by a vote of no confidence from the legislative body.

  4. There are no difference in “moderatism” or “swing votes” in a parliamentary system as compared to the US system, and “pork” is a problem of same magnitude in both systems.

"I know for both Canada and Australia, the Head of State is a ceremonial position that could just as easily be done away with (at a MASSIVE cost savings). "

just how much would these massive savings be, given that the Head of State of Canada/Australia doesn’t live in the country, have to be provided with a house in the country or draw a salary from the country, and doesn’t call in very often to demand a free board and lodging for the night?

Generally I agree with what you are saying, Alien. However:

My point wasn’t that a parliamentary system didn’t have checks and balances…of course it does (I don’t think Zagadka meant that either, but I’ll let him reply for himself). My point was, the OP was talking about a piecemeal approach to changing our current system to a parliamentary system by simply bolting on a Prime Minster role in place of the curent president. Such an action WOULD result in unbalance, as our system isn’t really set up to be a parliamentary one (for many of the reasons you pointed out, as well as some others you didn’t). So, attempting to retrofit PART of a parliamentary system into the current US system would be a disaster…it would be completely unbalanced.

-XT

You misunderstand the concept of parliamentarism, such a system would not result in unbalance, on the contrary, every democracy on the planet except 3-4 countries uses parliamentarism with great success. In it’s core it’s basically the same as the current US system, except that the legislative body can say that the President or any of his Secretaries doesn’t perform their job even when they haven’t broken the law - and they will have to step down - as opposed to waiting 4 years for the next election.

I was writing above about multiparty systems, but I should rather have used the word the Representatives.

The problem with parliamentarism in the US would be that you have the House and the Senate. What about state’s rights that’s the question.

So, its your contention that if we simply bolted on the role of a Prime Minister a la Great Britian in place of the president, that this wouldn’t result in an imbalance to our system, which is designed with a balance between the CURRENT duties of the executive, legislative and judiciary branches? I totally disagree. Only if you rebuild our system from the ground up to BE a full parliamentary system would it be balanced as you say.

No, I don’t really think I do. I think you are misunderstanding my point, not that I misunderstand how parliamentary systems work. A political system, especially a democratic system, has its own internal balance, its own internal consistancy. Trying to simply bolt on parts from another system will result in an imbalance (to say the least). So, trying to bolt on a Prime Ministers role in place of the current President will result in imbalances the system was not designed for…it was designed with a specific set of checks and balances that are internally consistant.

It would be like replacing the Parliment in Great Britian with our US Congress, but making no other changes…it wouldn’t work. If the British wanted to adopt OUR version of democracy, they’d need to rebuild their government from the ground up, not simply implement PART into their existing structure.

No, you misunderstood. I’ll grant you that the parliamentary systems of the world is single-election-systems (and usually multiparty systems), and I’ll admit that my reply was colored by that fact.

However, the core concept of parliamentarism is that the leaders in the executive branch has to have the confidence of the legislative branch, nothing more. You don’t need a Prime Minister and you don’t need to change systems or rebuild anything.

The only difference would be that an executive leader that goes havoc without breaking the law could actually be stopped by the Representatives. Without parliamentarism he can only be stopped by the voters in the next election. The recall in California was actually a kind of parliamentarism.

When that is said, I’ll retract what I said about the biggest problem is in regard to state rights. I was typing as I was on my way leaving and I was thinking about something else. No, I think the biggest problem is that the executive branch is selected in an election of its own. This create some problems because the executive leader has to leave office if he doesn’t have the confidence of the Representatives. So if the US should embrace parliamentarism and keep its system of two separate elction it probably could only apply to Secretaries, or one would need to conduct a new election.

Not necessarily. In France, they aren’t even allowed to be member of the parliament. The mark of a parliamentary system is that both the executive and the legislative can get rid of each other. The parliament can cast a vote of no confidence and oust the government, and the government can dissolve the parliament. They are interdependant, not totally separated as they’re in a presidential system.

What you’re refering to is a peculiarity of the british system, not something that logically follows from a parliamentary system.

This also is only a british peculiarity (when I say a peculiarity, it doesn’t mean that it’s the only country doing things that way, just that it’s not mandated by a parliamentary system). You could have exactly the same thing without changing much in the american institutions.

I disagree with this statement, in both France and Israel, the head of the executive is elected separately by the people. Though these are unusual systems, both are still parliamentary.

Firstly, the fact that in a parliamentary system there is not an effective branch to veto the power of the legislature does not prove that the parliamentary system is more balanced; in fact, it suggests the opposite.

Secondly, checks and balances are not the same thing. They are two very different concepts that are thought of as identical words meaning the same thing (a check is not a balance and vice versa.)

Now that I have the semantics out of the way, we can move on to my actual argument.

It is foolish to suggest changing the entire government for one reason, which is obviously distaste for Bush.

There are several important facets to our system of Government, and I am going to lay them out below:

  1. There is a fundamental balancing act to any government adhering to democratic principles:

A) Democracy is a fundamentally preferable situation; the people have a right to decide their own fate. Unfortunately, pure democracy cannot work on the large scale, because of a nasty little creature called majority faction. A majority faction is a majority that rises up, seizes government, and is harmful to a minority or society as a whole (example: the Nazis, they satisfy both aspects actually.)

B) To restrain majority faction, there must be certain limits placed on the people’s direct will. There must therefore not be direct democracy, but a government that respects the ideals of the people, and allows the people the right to vote, but a government that also restrains the voice of the people enough so that a majority faction cannot rise up and take over the government.

C) The balancing act is this: Too much direct influence from the people will allow majority faction to infringe on the rights of the minority or cause harm to society, too much restraint from the government will infringe on the people’s voice in government so much that democratic principles are not being adequately expressed.

  1. It is my opinion (and just my opinion, but one I feel I can support) that the United States Constitution creates the best answer to how to balance the problem of majority faction. I think the British system does extremely well, and for that matter most of the systems of Western Europe do fairly well (well, except for the EU, which I don’t feel does a good job of representing the feelings of individual Europeans.)

The reasons I feel the USC does this job the best are:

A) The USC was written and designed from the very start to solve the problem of majority faction (read the Federalist Papers.) The British system was developed over a long period of time out of a nearly absolute monarchy. Basically I believe it is better to build a house right the first time than to build a poor house to start with and try to fix all of its problems along the way, or more appropriately, it is better to build a house suited for its times as opposed to trying to upgrade a 15th century manor house to a 20th century post-modernist home.

B) In solving the problem of majority faction the USC starts right at the beginning with a vertical division of powers. State and Federal powers are divided clearly; the right of both governments to exist is absolute and inviolable. The U.S. Congress cannot declare the State of Virginia nonexistent anymore than Virginia can do that to the Federal Government.

This is an important division of powers that does not exist in the British system. While Wales, Scotland, England, and Northern Ireland have certain innate rights to existence, the individual county, borough, district et cetra have no inviolable right to existence.

C) In addition to the vertical division of powers, there is a horizontal division of powers. Governmental power is divided between the executive, legislative, and judicial branches.

D) Furthermore, the terms and means of election for all the different branches are different, which most importantly makes it very difficult for a majority faction to take over the United States government.

The entire membership of the House of Representatives is up for election every two years. This is the part of Government that is most likely to be taken over by majority faction.

The Senate is staggered, 1/3 is up for election every 3 years. So a majority faction would have to rise up and stay around for SIX YEARS to effectively take over both the House and Senate. Also, originally the Senate was elected by the State Legislatures, which meant that back then, a majority faction would have to stay in power for six years in 51% of ALL state legislatures. However as the years have progressed the people have decided to remove this check on majority faction in favor of a stronger balance to democracy, it seems to have worked out fine.

The Presidency is elected every four years. So the majority faction would have to rise up and stay around for at least four years to take over the Presidency. Originally the Electoral College chose the President. This was a restraint on majority faction because a majority faction would have had to set up and win 51% of the State Elector positions to take over the Presidency. But this system has been curtailed in all fifty States for a more democratic approach where the electors are figureheads, and again, the removal of that restriction on majority faction has proven to work out okay.

The United States Supreme Court is unelected. The nine members serve life terms. To effectively gain control of the Senate, the House, the Presidency, and the USSC a majority faction would have to exist and stay in power for around 12 years (a figure based on the average turnover rate of Supreme Court Justices.)

And that is just the Federal government. For a majority faction to completely take over the United States, it would have to seize power in a significant majority of the important states, because State government is also significant and if a majority faction didn’t have control of lots of key states like New York, California, Texas et cetra, it could effectively be stopped by the power of the collective State governments.

  1. In the British system a majority faction would basically just need to win what, 51% of the seats in Parliament? I profess some ignorance of the British system so I’ll need to research somewhat the full powers of a majority in Parliament.

However one thing the British system certainly does not have is a vertical division of powers. Central and local government is not divided in a permanent fashion. The central government can abolish any lower government, rearrange it et cetra. I’m speaking more generally of Parliament’s powers in England itself, because with the regional legislature in Scotland now I don’t know how it interacts with Parliament in London.

Furthermore, there is no division of powers in the United Kingdom, that is a fallacy and it is not true.

All power is essentially vested in the Legislative branch, and the legislative branch is even worse, unicameral (which isn’t necessary in the Parliamentary system in general), which means there is even fewer checks on government power.

There is no separation of powers between the executive and the legislative because the executive branch does not exist independent of the legislative. The Chief Executive of the nation is completely a creature of and is in fact a member of the legislature. He can be removed at any time by a legislative move (the no confidence vote), and the office changes hand as seats in the legislature change hands.

There is no review power in the judiciary. There is no possibility of an executive veto because there is no real executive, the executive is part of the legislature and if anything ever passed that he really did not want to, he wouldn’t be the executive anymore. The only real protection involved is the hope that you don’t have a majority faction in power.

So, one branch gets to 1) write and agree upon laws, 2) execute laws and 3) determine if the law is constitutional.

  1. The matter of debate.

In the Parliamentary system, debate concerning a law is not nearly as involved. There is strict party discipline, if the bill comes to a vote and doesn’t pass, the Prime Minister is basically cooked.

In the American system there must be a majority agreement in BOTH fully functioning Houses of Congress. And then, another branch entirely, the Executive, must agree upon the bill. Obviously the executive can be circumvented, but that takes a two-thirds majority in both houses and only has a 10% historical success rate.

There must be a strong and clear consensus for a law to pass in both houses. Because even if one party controls the White House, House of Representatives, and Senate, they would have to control the Senate by a 3/5 majority because opposition Senators can still conduct a filibuster. I mean, look at the judicial nominations during the Bush administration. The Republicans control the House, Senate, and White House, but the Democrats can still force them to come to the bargaining table.

Can a minority party in a parliamentary system do that?

And then of course there is the Supreme Court, which can overrule ANY law passed by Congress. And the only way to counteract that is to pass a constitutional amendment, something that has only happened 27 times in the history of the United States (and only once in direct response to a USSC decision.)

The increased debate forces consensus and moderation on virtually every issue. A bonus of the American system outside of its advantages in balancing the restriction of majority faction and the restriction of governmental power.

I don’t mean my post to be a complete dismissal of the Parliamentary system. For one, there are vast differences between the different parliamentary systems out there. The British example is actually an exception in several import aspects to what is the general trend throughout Europe.

In rereading my post, there are certain aspects that refer more specifically to the British system as opposed to the parliamentary system in general. However, the thread in general has focused heavily on the British system as opposed to parliamentarianism in general, so that set the tone for my response.

The Parliamentary system obviously has advantages as well. There is certainly a lot of debate, even in the UK where typically one party rules with a majority and follows the lead of the PM. There is lots of internal discussion within the party in power (or coalition in power, which is the more common situation on the Continent) that has much of a moderating effect.

I do ultimately assert the superiority of the United States system. But to be more specific, the superiority of the United States system in the context OF the United States and our unique history, I don’t hold it to be universally applicable or preferable.

Confusion of terminology. In Britain, and some other countries with parliamentary systems, they use the word “government” to mean what we Americans mean by “administration,” i.e., the current management of the executive. They use the word “Crown” or “state” to mean what we Americans mean by “government,” that is, the whole body of public institutions, which continues to exist from election to election.

Not at all. You are talking about entirely distinct elements of our political system – separation of powers, and federalism. But we could adopt a parliamentary system for the federal government, without altering the federal system or the present distribution of powers and functions between the state and federal governments.

We could also adopt a parliamentary system for any one state, without affecting the governments of any of the other states. That way, we could run an experiment, to see how a parliamentary system works out in an American setting. A piecemeal approach might be the best approach!

Well, I agree it COULD be done, but it would be difficult I think, and I doubt it would get much real traction. However, I’m still unsure how one would go about integrating a parliamentary system with our current system while still maintaining the proper balance between the various powers (without reforming the government from the ground up of course)…keeping any one from getting either too much or two little and throwing the entire system out of alignment. Perhaps I’m being overly pessimistic though, since I seem to be the only one voicing this concern. :slight_smile:

-XT

Because our Queen lives in a different country we instead have the Governor general who is the Queen’s representative, and acts as our Head of State with full veto power.

From the CBC:

I commend you for a thorough post Martin. And I’d like to point out that if there is something left to improve in the american political system, it’s hardly due to the lack of parliamentarism. In that respect the system works quite nicely, IMO. Our debate here is purely theoretical.

As to you post, I would start by pointing out, as you yourself did at the end, that the British system is not a typical parliamentary system, quite the contrary. Further, I would like to point out that the concept of vertical division of powers has nothing to do with parliamentarism, this division stems from the fact that the US has its states who has its own governments. This is something which is not an issue in most nations.

Now as for the rest:

  1. You fail to address that democratic nations are usually not two-party democracies, but multiparty democracies. This has nothing to do with parliamentarism, but you brought it up. Obviously, it would be much more difficult to create a majority faction in a multiparty environment with 5-8 parties, where the largest party has, say, 30% of the vote, and where most parties have between 5-20% of the vote, don’t you agree? Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t the GOP currently in majority control of all three branches? Isn’t there a republican governor in charge in the three biggest states?

You also make an issue out of the fact that not the entire House or Senate is up for re-election at the same time. But isn’t true that very few seats are truly vulnerable, especially in the House?
2. As for the horizontal division of powers, the divide between the executive, legislative, and judicial branch.

In most other democracies on this planet, the task of puttting together an administration is given to the leader of a broad coalition in the Parliament. In the US the President is elected in a separate election. Here, the advantage of a parliamentary system is that a radical extremist can hardly be elected Executive Leader, as is possible in the US where you vote for a single person (who can change his views after taking office) instead of a party.

The biggest difference between the US system, geared towards electing individuals, and the multiparty system, geared towards electing parties, is that in the latter it’s much more transparency and debate around topics which involves the politically interested average Joe. You see, besides the parliamentary process with its confidence vote, every party has a written program about where they stand on issues. Further, the party leaders are elected by party members. So anybody can affect a party just by becoming a member, including voting for who should lead the party and the party’s stand on issues. In fact, party members can boot the party leader even if the party leader is Prime Minister. As in: without involving the legislative body at all!

In the US system you cannot do any of this. When a guy is elected Executive Leader there is no way to get rid of him unless he breaks the law, that is, until the next election. The only thing the legislators can do is stop the flow of money to the executive branch.

You said that “one branch gets to 1) write and agree upon laws, 2) execute laws and 3) determine if the law is constitutional”. This is simply not true: In a parliamentary system the legislative body writes law, just as in the US. The executive body rules within the frame of the law, just as in the US. The executive body is free to issue provisions within the law, just like the US President can rule by decree. And the Secretaries are usually not members of the legislative body.

What is true is that in a parliamentary system the Executive Leader is coming from the legislative body, and by this he/she already has a base of support (from his/her own party) among the legislators. But this isn’t really anything different than in the US. Surely you agree that the core of GOP Representatives are supportive of Bush, and that the Democrats were generally supportive of Clinton?
3. Then we come to the judicial body. Unlike in the US, Supreme Court judges or other judges are not appointed based on party affiliation, or their “views”. On the contrary, judges are appointed based on their knowledge of the law. In most democracies judges are not party members or engaged in politics at all, neither past or present. And the judicial body is free to rule any law unconstitutional, just as in the US. Their judgement is based solely on the law at hand. The debate of “judges writing law” is non-existent in most other democracies.

This finally brings me to your hint that a 51% majority is enough to change any law, even the Constitution (you didn’t actually say that, but that’s how I read it). That is incorrect. Looking at different Constitution worldwide you will find that you usually need a 66%, or 75% or maybe even 90% majority in the legislative body to change the Constitution - AND any changes could be required to pass twice in the legislative body WITH a general election taking place before it’s passed the second time.

That’s it. I’m sure I left something out, but that will be all for now.

Disclaimer: I would like to point out that there are many democracies on this planet and most have their own way of doing certain things, so obviously some of the things I just wrote is not true everywhere.

A lot of your problems with my post I sort of included in my disclaimer that many Parliamentary systems are different and that I’m not saying everything I said is true for all of them, and that I was, through lack of monitoring myself, interchangeably using the term “Parliamentary” and “British” system.

In the British system, as I understand it, there is no body of legal professionals that rule on the constitutionality of law. And since there is no written constitution in the UK, and since as I understand it bills pass with a bare majority in Parliament, and the entire body of laws in the UK IS the constitution, then it only takes a majority to change something.

What I don’t know is if there are certain special acts and laws in the UK that cannot be overturned by a simple majority like that (Bill of Rights? Magna Carta? I don’t know, I’m no expert on the British system, my expertise in government is decidedly United States Constitutional matters.)

I don’t find the British system to have any division between the executive and the legislative. In fact the more I read about the British system the more I think it needs a bit of refinement.

The French system I like, there is a clear division between the executive and the legislative. For example the President of France is a powerful position that is elected separately from the legislature, while the Prime Minister of France is a legislatve leader that exists just like Tony Blair does over in the UK. Just in France I find there to be more of a balance between executive and legislative, because both branches are clearly separate and have a clear right of existence separate from one another.

Plus, since there’s already been probably 8-10 mini-arguments about “what is” and what “is not” a parliamentary system we’ve sort of entered a quagmire because I don’t even see what the workable and bare bones definition of Parliamentary democracy is.

As far as the multiparty system goes. Well the thing about first past the post systems is there is ALWAYS almost inevitably two parties. For the WHOLE nation. Which instantly moderates the matter unless there is some crazy majority faction that encompasses 80% of the populace, in which case nothing matters because no instrument of government anywhere can stop that.

In a multiparty system each party is going to be less moderated because you can exist as a small very narrow-focus party and still garner like 20% of the vote. If a strange influx of popularity suddenly went towards one ideology, or if there was suddenly a catastrophe, a small but already clearly established party with around 20% of the votes could seize power in a multiparty system (see Weimar Republic.)

I know that a colossal constitutional failure like that has only happened once. But governments in general in the Western Democracies don’t fail that often, so we are mostly just talking theory here. All the current systems deal with majority faction so well that we are really just arguing “who is best at being extremely good at what they do?!”

Plus, with the coalition forming that is inherent in multiparty systems, there are lots of “cloakroom” dealings and wheelings that the voters get no say on, so a party they voted for may ally with another party and form a government that sort of betrays a lot of what the voters of the first party wanted.

Similar things can happen in the U.S. system, though.

You point to the individual election of the U.S. President as more likely to elect a crazy guy.

Well, since there is an individual election it insures each candidate for President is under ENORMOUS scrutiny. We hear about every thing they’ve ever done, we hear stories from COLLEGE, COLLEGE PEOPLE. How fair is that? How much from college are you proud of? Ever throw up drunk, ever party too much?

No one cares. Unless you’re running for President.

Plus if the President actually is mentally incompetent his Vice President & Cabinet can remove him from office.

You actually cannot institute a parliamentary system on a State level in the United States.

Each State government must have a clearly defined Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branch, just like the Federal Government. I cannot remember the specific case law right now, but some USSC ruling established a principle that all State’s have to follow that basic foundation.

Well, of course, that’s a bit misleading. It’s rather like the fellow in the Arabian Nights who was given infinite power on condition he never use it. The last time the GG did anything quite so rude was in the 1920s.

I don’t think there is any specific constitutional requirement that would prevent a State from implementing such a system. There’s the provision that says the United States shall guarantee to each State a Republican form of government, but a parliamentary system still fits that description.

Yes but I’m saying I think I’ve heard somewhere that there was a USSC decision that mandated that there be a legislative, executive, and judicial branch. I can’t remember the context, I’ll check some resources.