# The United Way. It works for no one. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 10, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643 "2010-06-10T13:31:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/81 "2010-06-14T17:44:40Z")
In the late 70’s in Los Angeles, I was a member of Troop 103 in Los Angeles. We had girls in our Troop and were notorious in the area for that. Girls weren’t allowed in the BSA at the time. Eventually we went as far as letting the girls earn merit badges under slightly different names than their own (Elly became Eli, Marcy became Mark…). When the National Council or whatever found out they were not pleased. They told us, kick out the girls or we’ll revoke your charter. We became a camping and backpacking group unrelated to Scouting. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/82 "2010-06-14T18:25:07Z")
> [@robby](#): > > One answer might be that people have to make compromises at times in life. I disagreed with the similar policy of the U.S. military, but this did not prevent me from serving. I also disagree with many teachings of the Catholic church (including those discriminating against homosexuality), but this did not prevent me from going to my father’s funeral mass. Should I have stood outside the church during my father’s funeral to avoid condoning these teachings even implicitly? > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Sure, people have to compromise all the time, and that’s often a good thing. But that’s when both parties give something up so that everyone can benefit. By sending your son to the BSA, you’re allowing someone else to be discriminated against so that your son can benefit. That’s not exactly the same thing. I’m not referring to compromising to come to an agreement, which seems to be what you are referring to. I’m referring to compromising one’s principles. People do this all the time–it’s not pretty, but not everyone gets to live in an ivory tower. For example, people pay taxes that support wars they do not support, or a U.S. military that discriminates against gays and lesbians. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Not really a good parallel. I’m assuming that while you _attended_, you didn’t \*participate \*in the Mass (e.g., receive Communion). I disagree–I think that it’s a very good parallel. All three of the institutions that I have mentioned in my examples above are organizations that have policies that I personally disagree with, and I have had to compromise my principles to maintain an association with them. With respect to my father’s funeral, I most certainly did participate in the funeral mass. Hypocrite or not, I was not going to make a scene at my father’s funeral by failing to receive Communion. You could certainly make a case that I compromised my principles by doing so. With respect to the military, my entire service in the U.S. Navy was during a time of discrimination against homosexuals. I disagreed with the policy, and you could argue that I benefited due to this discrimination. However, I could not put my life on hold until the policy was reversed, if ever. Ultimately, I compromised my principles. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > And while you can go camping with your son yourself–or join a different BSA-like organization if there’s one in your area–you can’t have more than one funeral for your father. With respect to the Boy Scouts, there is no other BSA-like organization in my area. Even if there were, it wouldn’t be the same. Of all the institutions in my shitty childhood, the one positive influence in my life was the Boy Scouts. I got a sense of accomplishment by advancing through the ranks, and a properly run troop does much more than just taking boys camping or showing them a few skills. What Boy Scouts really does well is to allow boys to take on leadership roles in a controlled environment. A Boy Scout campout is more than just putting up tents in a park. Scouts hike, cook, clean, etc. They do all this by themselves, without an adult hovering over them like in much of the rest of our sanitized culture. And the Boy Scouts of America is the sole recognized representative of the United States in the [World Organization of the Scout Movement (WOSM)](http://scout.org/). There is literally no other game in town. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/83 "2010-06-14T18:35:22Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Okay, what if they’d allow Black boys to be Scouts as long as they wore whiteface? Why is it okay for atheist and agnostic and gay boys to have to lie about who they are in order to participate? (And the BSA definitely require you to be explicitly religious–there’s no way to just “not mention” being an atheist. You do actually have to lie about it.)… Correct. In addition to requiring Scouts to promise to do their duty _to God_\* via the Oath (which I remember being said at every meeting) they also very explicitly state in their bylaws that atheists and agnostics are both inferior and not welcome. They don’t even have a DADT-like policy for atheists! [QUOTE=Bylaws of the BSA, Declaration of Religious Principle] The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. [/QUOTE] Sounds pretty bigoted to me. \*Unlike the in the Girls Scouts Boy Scouts aren’t allowed to omit that or substitute another word. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/84 "2010-06-14T18:36:44Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > In the late 70’s in Los Angeles, I was a member of Troop 103 in Los Angeles. We had girls in our Troop and were notorious in the area for that. Girls weren’t allowed in the BSA at the time. Eventually we went as far as letting the girls earn merit badges under slightly different names than their own (Elly became Eli, Marcy became Mark…). When the National Council or whatever found out they were not pleased. They told us, kick out the girls or we’ll revoke your charter. We became a camping and backpacking group unrelated to Scouting. Great–does the group still exist? In any event, there’s more to Boy Scouts than just camping and backpacking. FWIW, the BSA does allow girls to join now with [Venturing](http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Venturing.aspx), which is a co-ed BSA program. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/85 "2010-06-14T19:02:40Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Great–does the group still exist? In any event, there’s more to Boy Scouts than just camping and backpacking. I’d be shocked if the group was still around. It probably didn’t last more than five years. You’re of course correct that there is more to Scouting than camping and we didn’t do any of that. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/86 "2010-06-14T19:06:28Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Hypocrite or not, I was not going to make a scene at my father’s funeral by failing to receive Communion. You could certainly make a case that I compromised my principles by doing so. I’d sure as hell make the case that you were incredibly disrespectful to all the Catholics there by doing so. Members of the RCC believe in transubstantiation–the bread and wine of the Eucharist is believe to be the **literal body and blood of Jesus Christ**. To take Communion if you don’t agree is very, \*very \*rude. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/87 "2010-06-14T19:09:19Z")
If they don’t know his feelings about Catholic doctrine, then how can it be rude? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/88 "2010-06-14T19:17:55Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > If they don’t know his feelings about Catholic doctrine, then how can it be rude? Because it shows a complete disregard for \*their \*beliefs and feelings. “I know that this is pretty much the holiest thing in the world to you, that you think it’s literally the true physical presence of your God, and I’m going to eat it even though it means nothing to me.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/89 "2010-06-14T19:26:16Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Because it shows a complete disregard for \*their \*beliefs and feelings. “I know that this is pretty much the holiest thing in the world to you, that you think it’s literally the true physical presence of your God, and I’m going to eat it even though it means nothing to me.” Bullshit. If they have no idea what he believes, then they should be feeling no disrespect from him. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/90 "2010-06-14T19:28:37Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Because it shows a complete disregard for \*their \*beliefs and feelings. “I know that this is pretty much the holiest thing in the world to you, that you think it’s literally the true physical presence of your God, and I’m going to eat it even though it means nothing to me.” If they don’t know what his relationship with the Catholic church is, or, indeed, if they believe that he is a sincere Catholic, then there is no way that his act of receiving communion can send that message. Indeed, the message will be exactly the opposite, that he is in full communion withe the church, and I’m assuming that that’s exactly the message they wanted to get. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/91 "2010-06-14T19:30:00Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I’d sure as hell make the case that you were incredibly disrespectful to all the Catholics there by doing so. Members of the RCC believe in transubstantiation–the bread and wine of the Eucharist is believe to be the **literal body and blood of Jesus Christ**. To take Communion if you don’t agree is very, \*very \*rude. My disagreement with the Catholic Church has to do with the Church’s official policies on birth control, abortion, the priest-abuse scandal, and homosexuality (just off the top of my head), not if transubstantiation is the literal truth or not. And I am Catholic–one of many who does not agree with all of the policies of the Church. I know other Catholics who are not supposed to receive Communion because they divorced without paying off the Church to receive an official annulment. However, they do anyway because they feel it’s a matter between them and God. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Because it shows a complete disregard for \*their \*beliefs and feelings. “I know that this is pretty much the holiest thing in the world to you, that you think it’s literally the true physical presence of your God, and I’m going to eat it even though it means nothing to me.” Where did you get the idea in the first place that I had issue with the doctrine of transubstantiation? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/92 "2010-06-14T19:39:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Bullshit. If they have no idea what he believes, then they should be feeling no disrespect from him. If I shit on the Qur’an in the privacy of my own home, that magically makes it not disrespectful to Muslims, just because they can’t see me doing it? > [@robby](#): > > And I am Catholic–one of many who does not agree with all of the policies of the Church. [snip] Where did you get the idea in the first place that I had issue with the doctrine of transubstantiation? Ah, my misunderstanding, then. It was my impression from the way you’d phrased things that you’d broken away from the Church and were taking Communion just because everyone else was. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/93 "2010-06-14T19:43:19Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > If I shit on the Qur’an in the privacy of my own home, that magically makes it not disrespectful to Muslims, just because they can’t see me doing it? If no one sees you crapping, then, so far as they are concerned, no one has crapped. Disrespect occurs only if there is communication. No witness, no communication. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/94 "2010-06-14T20:42:20Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > If no one sees you crapping, then, so far as they are concerned, no one has crapped. Disrespect occurs only if there is communication. No witness, no communication. Someone can only \*take offense \*if there is communication. _ **Disrespect** _, however, happens regardless of whether anyone else is aware of the act. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/95 "2010-06-14T20:45:22Z")
Nonsense. Disrespect is solely in the eyes of the observer. If there is no observer, there cannot be any disrespect. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/96 "2010-06-14T20:50:48Z")
So…Schroedinger’s Quran, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/97 "2010-06-14T21:06:30Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Nonsense. Disrespect is solely in the eyes of the observer. If there is no observer, there cannot be any disrespect. M-W’s [definition of disrespect](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disrespect): > [@](#): > > Main Entry: [sup]1[/sup]dis·re·spect > Pronunciation: \ˌdis-ri-ˈspekt > Function: transitive verb > Date: 1614 > 1 : to have disrespect for > 2 : to show or express disrespect or contempt for : insult, dis > > Main Entry: [sup]2[/sup]disrespect > Function: noun > Date: 1621 > : lack of respect Nope, nothing in there about needing a second party. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/98 "2010-06-14T21:07:41Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Schroedinger’s Quran Now opening for **The Satanic Vs.**. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/99 "2010-06-14T21:10:41Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > M-W’s [definition of disrespect](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disrespect): > Nope, nothing in there about needing a second party. “Express” implies communication. So does “insult.” ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643/100 "2010-06-14T21:15:08Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > “Express” implies communication. So does “insult.” Implies, but does not **require**. I can go home to my apartment today and shout at the wall that my manager at my last job was a retarded douchebarge, and I’m both expressing myself and insulting him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-united-way-it-works-for-no-one/542643.md?page=6)