# The Universal Hand Of Justice vs. The Bare-Knuckled Fist Of Reason **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356 "2014-02-14T18:47:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jmliny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@jmliny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmliny)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/1 "2014-02-14T18:47:21Z")
Faith vs. Non Faith: . . . abuse, rape, murder, mass murders like in the concentration camps, slavery in infant America . . . some of these people have never been held accountable whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/2 "2014-02-14T18:50:45Z")
Okay, I give up. Why is reason a bare-knuckled boxer and justice just a (presumably open) hand? Also, are you intending to conflate justice with faith? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/3 "2014-02-14T18:57:25Z")
The albatross of truck maintenance fails to deliver pizza under moonlight. ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/4 "2014-02-14T19:24:44Z")
Fuck you, Jimla ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/5 "2014-02-14T19:31:50Z")
[For the luvva ghod, do NOT ask him to elaborate!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=715797) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/6 "2014-02-14T19:32:58Z")
> [@jmliny](#): > > Faith vs. Non Faith: > > . . . abuse, rape, murder, mass murders like in the concentration camps, slavery in infant America . . . some of these people have never been held accountable whatsoever. That would be because they are dead. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/7 "2014-02-14T19:40:30Z")
More like the battleship of indifference vs. the guided-missile cruisers of ennui. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/8 "2014-02-14T19:42:02Z")
I think this comes up under “The Flying Fickle Finger of Fate” giving us the middle one, straight up. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/9 "2014-02-14T19:47:05Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > Fuck you, Jimla I don’t care about the circumstances. This is never permitted in Great Debates. Warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/10 "2014-02-14T19:47:17Z")
> [@](#): > > **The Universal Hand Of Justice vs. The Bare-Knuckled Fist Of Reason** Ooo, superhero crossover fight! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/11 "2014-02-14T19:50:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Ooo, superhero crossover fight! Does the winner then challenge The Red Mamba? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/12 "2014-02-14T19:52:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does the winner then challenge The Red Mamba? Nope, they team up against him after they find out that he manipulated them into fighting each other as part of his nefarious plan for world domination. ---
**Author:** ![jmliny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@jmliny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmliny)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/13 "2014-02-18T00:11:33Z")
. . abuse, rape, murder, mass murders like in the concentration camps, slavery in infant America . . . some of these people have never been held accountable whatsoever. I think most religious people would say to the victims, what comes around goes around, the universal hand of justice, God sees everything. They’ll be held accountable. I was wondering what a non religious person who doesn’t believe in God or the Supernatural or the universal hand of justice would say? What would you say to a rape victim who was told by the police we couldn’t find the guy? Would you just say, well, life’s a bitch? Would you say, well, there’s awful people out there? What would you say? Would you say some bullshit like I don’t believe in the Supernatural, so you’ll just have to bite the bullet? What would you say to the people who had family in the concentration camps and nothing came to the people who committed the crimes? What would you say to the black folks whose ancestors in infant America were raped, killed, drove through the fields like horses and nothing was done to the people who did that? And since these people who did it are no longer around, what would you say? Life’s a bitch? I don’t believe in life after death, you just got to suck it up? I as a religious person would say, what comes around goes around, the universal hand of justice, God sees everything. They’ll be held accountable. (That’s just me, the red Mamba; how I’d talk.) So I was wondering what the non religious people had to say: the bare-knuckled fist of reason people. . . . Tell me exactly what you would say, verbatim, to a rape victim who knew there was no way the police or anybody was going to find the guy? Exactly how you would say it to her? I’m curious. I didn’t think what I initially wrote was so vague. I actually thought it was pretty straight-forward. Anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/14 "2014-02-18T00:12:33Z")
> [@jmliny](#): > > Faith vs. Non Faith: Your mistake is in equating justice with faith. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/15 "2014-02-18T00:14:53Z")
> [@jmliny](#): > > So I was wondering what the non religious people had to say: the bare-knuckled fist of reason people. . . . > > Tell me exactly what you would say, verbatim, to a rape victim who knew there was no way the police or anybody was going to find the guy? Exactly how you would say it to her? I’m curious. “I’m sorry this happened to you - what can I do to help you move on past this ?” “Life’s not fair, anyone that tells you different is selling something” Seems pretty fucking easy if you ask me. Works for every situation you describe and there are concrete actions a person (or people can take ) - none of this “waiting on some invisible force to make it better” or other bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/16 "2014-02-18T00:22:27Z")
> [@jmliny](#): > > I didn’t think what I initially wrote was so vague. I actually thought it was pretty straight-forward. To the contrary, it was so obscure that I thought you were arguing precisely the opposite position. But then, I’m not used to people using the existence of rape, murder, slavery, and genocide as evidence _for_ the existence of God. They seem like pretty potent arguments in the other direction, actually. Anyway, I admit, atheism doesn’t have a good answer for, “Why didn’t the person who did this get punished?” That rather pales in the face of the question posed to theists, which is “Why did God let this happen in the first place?” ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/17 "2014-02-18T00:37:09Z")
So, I’m an atheist and I’m supposed to be in the position of consoling someone who has been violated in some terrible way. Let’s assume she is also an atheist, since she is looking to me for support, and if she was religious she would be talking to a priest or someone like that. I guess I would say, “That makes me angry that he did that to you, and if there is any justice in the world, he will get what’s coming to him.” I’m not sure why you think an atheist can’t believe in morality or justice. I’d like to hear that argument. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/18 "2014-02-18T01:25:27Z")
If I were a victim of a terrible crime or loss and someone said to me “don’t worry, God’s a plan and He’ll sort it out eventually,” I would at the very least ask them to shut the fuck up and get out of my face. Yanno, if it were, say, my mom. A stranger, I’d be inclined to slug. The simple fact is that life _is_ a bitch, and there _are_ awful people out there. That doesn’t change because you may or may not believe in some ineffable God. But you want to tell me I lost a leg in a car crash, but it “was God’s will?” Fuck you. My wife was raped, but hey, at least the rapist will face God’s judgment? Fuck you again. My child was killed in a drive-by, but “he’s in a better place?” Fuck you yet again, with an additional fuck you. Thankfully, as a society we have chosen not to rely on “don’t worry, God’s got a plan, and He’ll sort it all out eventually.” We have laws, and police, and a justice system that does at least a decent job of bringing evildoers to justice, and we constantly strive to make that system better. As a nontheist what would I say? “You’ve experienced something horrible, and yes, horrible things happen. We’re going to do what we can to bring your assailant to justice…and here’s the number of a really good therapist to help you sort through this trauma. You can make it through this, and I’m here for you.” . ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/19 "2014-02-18T01:36:09Z")
> [@jmliny](#): > > What would you say… > > Would you just say… > > Would you say… > > What would you say? Would you say some bullshit like… > > What would you say… > > What would you say… > > Tell me exactly what you would say… I don’t see why _I_, the individual, am obliged to say _anything_ in any of these scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/20 "2014-02-18T01:42:46Z")
Shit, I just had a really bad Dave Matthews Band trip. Thanks for _that_ earworm, OP. As an atheist, talking to a close friend who’d specifically asked for my input? “I’m so sorry this happened to you. I can’t answer the question of “why?” and its been my experience that, much/most of the time, there is no “why.” It’s in our nature to look for it, but, unfortunately, a lot of the time, bad things happen to good people for no reason whatsoever. I hope justice prevails, but let’s talk about you for right now…” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356.md?page=2)