# The Universal Hand Of Justice vs. The Bare-Knuckled Fist Of Reason **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356 "2014-02-14T18:47:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/21 "2014-02-18T12:08:00Z")
> [@jmliny](#): > > Would you say some bullshit like I don’t believe in the Supernatural, so you’ll just have to bite the bullet? Belief in the supernatural doesn’t make the bullet more bite-able; it denies the bullet’s existence. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/22 "2014-02-18T12:51:01Z")
> [@jmliny](#): > > Tell me exactly what you would say, verbatim, to a rape victim who knew there was no way the police or anybody was going to find the guy? Exactly how you would say it to her? I’m curious. I’d be all, “Hey you, don’t give up!”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/23 "2014-02-18T13:11:28Z")
> [@jmliny](#): > > . . abuse, rape, murder, mass murders like in the concentration camps, slavery in infant America . . . some of these people have never been held accountable whatsoever. > > I think most religious people would say to the victims, what comes around goes around, the universal hand of justice, God sees everything. They’ll be held accountable. When they aren’t saying it’s all part of God’s Plan, or that it’s no big deal because of the afterlife, or that the victims obviously deserved it because otherwise God wouldn’t have inflicted such suffering on them, or they aren’t the ones doing the horrible things in the first place. > [@jmliny](#): > > Tell me exactly what you would say, verbatim, to a rape victim who knew there was no way the police or anybody was going to find the guy? I’m sorry it happened? It’s certainly better than screaming at her that she’s a slut who should have kept her legs shut, or that she should have submitted to her rapist as God demands, or telling her it’s punishment for her sinful thoughts or her actions in a previous life, or executing her for fornication, or forcing her to marry her rapist, or all the other nasty things that religion tends to inspire. Neither God nor religion is “just” in the first place, much less a “universal hand of justice”. I certainly wouldn’t try to “comfort” someone by telling them the universe is controlled by a supernatural all-powerful megalomaniac who likes to inflict eternal torture on people and who planned her rape at the beginning of time. ---
**Author:** ![BigDadWolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@BigDadWolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigDadWolf)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/24 "2014-02-18T13:14:01Z")
I agree with the phrase “I’m so sorry this happened to you and I will do what I can to help you recover”. Now you tell me - what do you say to such a victim if your “god” is the type that accepts death-bed confessions from the rapist or allows the rapist to be “reborn” so that the one who did the evil is given a free pass to heaven. Isn’t that what a good christian should do? Pray for the soul of the sinner so that may see the light and become “saved”. Is that what you tell the victim who has been raped - pray for the rapist so they will get to be saved and go to heaven? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/25 "2014-02-18T13:58:01Z")
I’m sorry, but getting to the core of things, what’s the point? I don’t believe in the supernatural, but I hardly think this is a good way to sway me (or anyone else). The fact that reality is often horrible, and almost never fair does not justify the existence of the supernatural. If you believe something because you know that without it, reality doesn’t seem quite as pleasant… Well, that’s a terrible reason to believe in _anything_. If there’s no God, then that rapist got off without the threat of eternal punishment. But the fact that some would consider it to be nice if he did get eternal punishment (as a side note: this concept is infinitely immoral and absolutely disgusting) does not mean that their preference dictates reality. Without actual evidence, there’s nothing to be said. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/26 "2014-02-18T15:21:16Z")
[QUOTE=jmliny] What would you say to the people who had family in the concentration camps and nothing came to the people who committed the crimes? [/QUOTE] My grandfather was religious _until_ he served in Europe during WWII, at which point he concluded that God wouldn’t have stood by and let the Holocaust happen – figuring it’s simply _absurd_ to imagine an entity who could help, but doesn’t, but will punish the evildoers later, which is an odd thing to postulate about Someone Who Pointedly Isn’t Punishing The Wicked, Exactly As If He (a) Doesn’t Care About That, or (b) Isn’t There. So his atheism ensued, because, honestly, what could he say to a concentration-camp survivor? _“If there is a God, the one thing we know from events hereabouts is that he doesn’t give a crap about justice, and so maybe he’ll keep rewarding evildoers in the afterlife, and maybe you’re in for yet more injustice in the afterlife too, because, hey, all evidence is that God is cool with that, amirite?”_ ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/27 "2014-02-18T15:24:41Z")
I don’t understand why you think _saying_ “the perpetrators will get punished in the afterlife” has any more effect on the victim(s) than anything anyone else says. It’s only comforting (only _potentially_ comforting, I should say) if the victim _believes_ you, which is certainly not a given and does not seem to be a precondition of your OP. Why do you feel like choosing someone’s most vulnerable moment to talk about the social superorganism\* whose ends you serve is an appropriate response, or that it will help that person? \*According to [David Sloan Wilson’s _Darwin’s Cathedral_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin%27s_Cathedral), religions are best explained as ‘superorganisms’ adapted to succeed in competition against others. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/28 "2014-02-18T16:15:13Z")
> [@jmliny](#): > > I didn’t think what I initially wrote was so vague. I actually thought it was pretty straight-forward. This here is really just a small part of your problems, but it really shows how little experience you have with honestly considering how other people think. ---
**Author:** ![jmliny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@jmliny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmliny)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/29 "2014-02-20T01:53:27Z")
Blake, Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t think I’d have the heart to say it the way you would say it. I kind of feel it lacks compassion. But if you don’t believe in what comes around goes around, I guess you have no choice. I feel a person who has been wronged wants justice. Worm. . . . ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/30 "2014-02-20T01:58:25Z")
> [@jmliny](#): > > I feel a person who has been wronged wants justice. > > Worm. . . . Perhaps, but that’s no reason to lie to them. ---
**Author:** ![Bigblackafrican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@Bigblackafrican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bigblackafrican)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/31 "2014-02-20T06:33:04Z")
I’d say the greedy polluting money hungry slavemasters known as White men are the virus on the planet. Karma? That’s putting it lightly. Everything about Ameirca and Europe is backwards. A THING oriented society is psychopathic. Which is why governments down to thugs are stealing/mugging/people/countries for THINGS. The CONTROLLERS are holding onto a DYING ideology. Money. oil. (central banks). Will white people pay for their depravities? They are paying now. But as we all know, some virus’ must enjoy the deluge of fire. so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/32 "2014-02-20T06:49:54Z")
This thread has taken an unexpected turn. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/33 "2014-02-20T07:16:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This thread has taken an unexpected turn. Enter the Black Mamba… ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/34 "2014-02-20T07:27:52Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Enter the Black Mamba… Does that sound anything like _Enter Sandman_? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/35 "2014-02-20T07:33:21Z")
> [@jmliny](#): > > Blake, > > Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t think I’d have the heart to say it the way you would say it. I kind of feel it lacks compassion. But if you don’t believe in what comes around goes around, I guess you have no choice. > > I feel a person who has been wronged wants justice. > > Worm. . . . And I feel that promising that person justice when there’s no reason to believe that said justice is forthcoming is dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/36 "2014-02-20T08:45:32Z")
Curiouser and nuttiouser. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/37 "2014-02-20T09:04:35Z")
> [@Bigblackafrican](#): > > I’d say the greedy polluting money hungry slavemasters known as White men are the virus on the planet. > > Karma? > > That’s putting it lightly. Everything about Ameirca and Europe is backwards. > > A THING oriented society is psychopathic. Which is why governments down to thugs are stealing/mugging/people/countries for THINGS. > > The CONTROLLERS are holding onto a DYING ideology. Money. oil. (central banks). > > Will white people pay for their depravities? > > They are paying now. But as we all know, some virus’ must enjoy the deluge of fire. > > so be it. Do you beleive there is such a thing as bigotry? If so, would you classify yourself as a bigot? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/38 "2014-02-20T09:23:52Z")
> [@Bigblackafrican](#): > > That’s putting it lightly. Everything about Ameirca and Europe is backwards. Name the part of the world that you _would_ hold up as the ideal society that us backward, thing-obsessed westerners should be striving to emulate. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/39 "2014-02-20T10:01:12Z")
> [@Bigblackafrican](#): > > The CONTROLLERS are holding onto a DYING ideology. > [@Latro](#): > > Enter the Black Mamba… Versus the [Controllers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controllers_%28DC_Comics%29)! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356/40 "2014-02-20T12:22:45Z")
But OP, what IS heartless about acknowledging facts and deciding that we’d rather talk about what we _ **can** _ do to help or comfort rather than what we’d hope or wish? Hell, sometimes the wronged party themselves already know there is not going to be any sort of payback collected and will be quite peeved that you promise them some sort of cosmic correction in the hereafter, when their suffering was here and now. (And sorry, here’s another vote that your first post WAS excessively minimalist) > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Versus the [Controllers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controllers_%28DC_Comics%29)! And then the winner goes up against the winner of UHOJ vs BKFOR? Or is it a round-robin? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-hand-of-justice-vs-the-bare-knuckled-fist-of-reason/681356.md?page=3)