# The Universal Right to Shoot One's Own Arms? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2001, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490 "2001-04-02T14:57:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2001, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/21 "2001-04-02T22:30:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > > If you want them, buy them. Just like everybody else. > > It is illegal to buy them. OK, so they can be bought on the black market, but the average junkie jonesing for a fix isn’t always going to make shelling out extra money for a new needle a priority when it takes all day to spange $20. \*\* Life sure is hard on a junkie, isn’t it? Maybe they should get reparations. I guess they need to either a) find a hobby that’s legal, b) push for legalization, or c) find an easier delivery system. Doesn’t anybody smoke heroin anymore? Hell, you could even d) revolt. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Originally posted by lissener_ > **The microphallic gun-toters, of course, just want to bluster defensively** OH, I see. You were looking for the BBQ Pit. That’s across the hall. This is Great Debates. Just in case you started this thread for a legitimate debate, and not just to be a dick, allow me to rephrase your premise for you: > [@](#): > > _lissener’s actual intent_: > **What makes a right a right? What distinguishes a right from any other behavior, and how can we know the difference? Why are guns considered essential liberty in spite of their potential danger to other people, when drugs are illegal even though they pose (immediate) danger only to the user?** How’s that? ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2001, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/22 "2001-04-02T22:30:30Z")
> [@](#): > > The microphallic gun-toters… [Moderator Hat ON] I am having trouble working out the logic that allows you to think that asserting that other posters have tiny penises might _possibly_ be acceptable in GD. Don’t do this again. [Moderator Hat OFF] [Edited by Gaudere on 04-02-2001 at 05:36 PM] ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2001, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/23 "2001-04-02T22:37:54Z")
I have both IV and IM needles. I also have such antibiotics as procaine pennicilin. Every year I purchase a series of distemper, Coggins, rabies and other vaccines in small dose quantities. I purchase needles in different sizes for different applications. Intended for veterinary use, they can be purchased over the counter, as easily and in the same store in which I buy bullets. You can do this in pretty much **any** agricultural community. What you can’t do, and what is illegal, is to buy or sell these needles for the purpose of use of illegal IV drugs in humans. It is illegal for the exact same reason that it is illegal to buy or sell a gun for the express purpose of commiting a murder. If you have any class you’ll chill with the insults and apologize. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2001, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/24 "2001-04-02T23:40:31Z")
Well, I’ve fallen into my wonted trap of antagonizing the people whose position is utterly unfathomable to me, and from whom I wanted to try to gain a little insight. Cheap shots, but you’re right, **Gaudere** , I should have gone without saying them; to have done so was as unnecessary as it was impolite. Thanks, _Scylla,_ for your amusingly hypocritical definition of “class,” \*vis à vis \*churlish Board behavior and absent apologies. And thank _you,_ \*\* Joe\_Cool\*\*, for suggesting another thread topic. Why don’t you, um, _post_ it? I confess I find it impossible to respect the point of view of people who hold dearer their right fondle and stroke their steely cold cylinder than others’ right to live life safely. So I’m not all that interested in your defensive, guilty rationalizations: I hoped only to ask you to explain the double standard you hold of “rights and freedoms” which, it appears, must (for you guys to get _any_ sleep) remain unexamined. Sorry I scared you. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2001, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/25 "2001-04-02T23:41:16Z")
Joe\_Cool wrote: > [@](#): > > But regardless, shooting dope is illegal. Firearms are among the most important of personal rights, and explicitly protected by the Constitution. Some would argue that shooting dope should be protected under the 4th Amendment’s implied right of privacy, too. > [@](#): > > We’re not talking about apples and oranges here. This is more like apples and comets. Yeah! If I can go down to my local supermarket and buy an apple, _why can’t I buy a comet?!_ It’s infringing on my rights, dog gone it. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2001, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/26 "2001-04-02T23:57:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\* I confess I find it impossible to respect the point of view of people who hold dearer their right fondle and stroke their steely cold cylinder than others’ right to live life safely. \*\* I live in New York City, chief. My “right to fondle and stoke my steely cold cylinder” _is_ my right to live life safely. > [@](#): > > Sorry I scared you. \*\* Bahahahahahaha! Oh, look, I was so insulting and disingenuous that no one took me seriously! I must have scared them! Yeah, that must be it, boss. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/27 "2001-04-03T00:00:41Z")
That wasn’t an apology. That was another insult. > [@](#): > > Thanks, Scylla, for your amusingly hypocritical definition of “class,” vis à vis churlish Board behavior and absent apologies. A link or quote for that accusation please. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/28 "2001-04-03T01:59:30Z")
Speaking as a gun owner, and a Life Member of the NRA, I surely _do_ want IV drug users to have and to use clean needles and syringes. If they absolutely _must_ shoot drugs IV, then by all means, let them be hygienic about doing so. But, as I’m not asking them (or anyone else) to pay for my firearms, bullets, targets, range time, cleaning supplies, safety equipment, trigger locks or gun safe, please don’t ask me, as a taxpayer, to pay for their needles. For the record, I’m personally pro-life, and politically pro-choice. Stick _that_ one into a syringe and shoot it. I live in Texas; I have all of my teeth, they’re about as white and as straight as naturally possible; I don’t chew tobacco; I drink in moderation (mainly socially); I don’t own or wear cowboy boots; I don’t own a pickup truck; I don’t own a Confederate Flag; I’ve never abused a female; I don’t have junk cars and broken appliances in my yard; and I’ve never lived in a trailer-home; single- or double-wide. I consider myself a gentleman, a citizen, and a patriot. I am an agnostic, and believe in the firm separation between church and state. And I’ve never felt any inadequacy, or had any complaints, concerning the size, or performance, of my natural assets. _I await your apology for your slanderous attack upon me, as a member of the NRA._ But considering the marvel of courage displayed in summoning and casting such a wide-ranging insult (from the safe anonymity of a screen name, no less) I ain’t a-holdin’ my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/29 "2001-04-03T02:48:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > **I confess I find it impossible to respect the point of view of people who hold dearer their right fondle and stroke their steely cold cylinder than others’ right to live life safely.** If someone isn’t planning to harm you in the first place, how does that person’s owning a gun jeopardize your safety? As for safety: the police can avenge you, but they can’t protect you. If that’s where you look for your safety, I’d advise you to look elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/30 "2001-04-03T03:33:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > I have both IV and IM needles. I also have such antibiotics as procaine pennicilin. Every year I purchase a series of distemper, Coggins, rabies and other vaccines in small dose quantities. I purchase needles in different sizes for different applications. Intended for veterinary use, they can be purchased over the counter, as easily and in the same store in which I buy bullets. > > You can do this in pretty much **any** agricultural community. Interesting point, that I was unaware of. Thanks. But, as you know, most US citizens (and probably most junkies) don’t live in rural areas, so that access to clean needles can be difficult. Separately: I assume that needles are prescription items, since diabetics use them regularly. ---
**Author:** ![handandahalf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@handandahalf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handandahalf)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/31 "2001-04-03T06:57:16Z")
I happen to live in Kansas City, a fairly large Midwestern metropolis, and there are a number of stores that supply hypodermic needles without the need for a prescription. Granted, almost all of them are agricultural or veterinarian supply stores, but ANYONE can buy needles, no questions asked. You’d be astonished at how inexpensive they are. If your average junkie was truly concerned more about his personal health than getting his next fix (which is disproved by the fact that he is an addict), it would be an easy matter to acquire clean needles. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/32 "2001-04-03T09:27:33Z")
To **lissener** … Why do you automatically seem to assume that people are against IV drug use on moral grounds simply because they find your comparison between drug use and gun ownership to be ludicrous? Why do you automatically assume that, just because you can’t understand the position of gun rights’ advocates, it must be wrong and misguided? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/33 "2001-04-03T09:36:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ExTank \* > \*\*Speaking as a gun owner, and a Life Member of the NRA, I surely _do_ want IV drug users to have and to use clean needles and syringes. If they absolutely _must_ shoot drugs IV, then by all means, let them be hygienic about doing so. > > But, as I’m not asking them (or anyone else) to pay for my firearms, bullets, targets, range time, cleaning supplies, safety equipment, trigger locks or gun safe, please don’t ask me, as a taxpayer, to pay for their needles. > \*\* I like Ex Tank’s philosophy here. I wonder though if giving out needles wouldn’t save the taxpayer money in the long term - by reducing cross infection, would the amount of money saved in health care not be greater than the cost of needles? ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/34 "2001-04-03T11:09:55Z")
> [@](#): > > I wonder though if giving out needles wouldn’t save the taxpayer money in the long term - by reducing cross infection, would the amount of money saved in health care not be greater than the cost of needles? I think that, in order for the Government to have any hope of justifying free distribution of clean needles to drug users on moral OR legal grounds, they must first legalize the use of said drugs. I mean, if on the one hand they’re saying “This is illegal”, and then on the other providing the materials to PERFORM that illegal act (despite what the intentions may be) is the height of hypocrisy and stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/35 "2001-04-03T11:55:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly \* > \*\*I mean, if on the one hand they’re saying “This is illegal”, and then on the other providing the materials to PERFORM that illegal act (despite what the intentions may be) is the height of hypocrisy and stupidity. \*\* Unfortunately you are completely correct there. Of course it could be argued that so many “War on Drugs” style policies adopted by governments around the world are already hypocritical and stupid, so why worry now? ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/36 "2001-04-03T11:56:08Z")
I live in a country which has both strict gun control laws **and** a comprehensive needle exchange programme. The first was instituted for public safety reasons, the second for public health reasons. Although Australia has never had any presumed “right to bear arms”, the introduction of our strict gun control legislation required a paradigm shift in our attitude regarding the right of law-abiding citizens to possess weapons. Similarly, a paradigm shift from the goal of eradicating illegal drug use to that of harm-minimisation was required when needle exchange programmes were introduced. I’m not sure what the OP’s actual **point** was, but if they’d like to clarify it, I’m sure some of my fellow Aussies would like to argue the before and after issues relating to both gun control and public health policies relating to illegal drug use. ---
**Author:** ![McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e19adc/32.png) [@McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/37 "2001-04-03T18:11:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Spoofe Bo Diddley_ > I mean, if on the one hand they’re saying “This is illegal”, and then on the other providing the materials to PERFORM that illegal act (despite what the intentions may be) is the height of hypocrisy and stupidity. No it’s not, it’s being realistic. They _know_ that there are many heroin addicts who will never, ever, be able to free themselves from the drug. Given that, why not at least provide them with the equipment they need to ensure that they don’t accidentally infect themselves, and perhaps others further down the line, with diseases such as AIDS, Hepatitis etc? ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brian_Bunnyhurt)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/38 "2001-04-03T20:29:07Z")
And might I add, in case no one else has, that if needle-users contract AIDS, or more commonly hepatitis (and many other diseases and infections) it is the taxpayer that almost always picks up the tab. Needle exchange fears are a good example of the punishing morality of religious ultra-onservatives, who most often blame the victim (because ultra-conservatives need to either praise or blame someone to understand cause and effect). This mindset is a holdover from the ancient days, when all disease was caused by sin and demons, and all other misfortune caused by angry gods. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/39 "2001-04-03T20:55:23Z")
There are legitimate uses and rights associated with firearm usage. Nonetheless, reasonable gun control laws are prudent for our society. Very few legitimate gun owners would argue against this. Where conflict occurs is when gun control laws seek to undermine or outright conflict with these constitutional rights. Guns have legitimate usage; for sport, defense, hunting, etc. There are no legitimate usage or associated rights for recreational IV drugs. Nervertheless, there are legitimate uses for hypodermic needles. These needles are easily available to those who have the need, and even those that don’t if they use a little initiative. If hypodermic needles are disposed of improperly by an irresponsible person, than they can represent a significant health hazard to the public at large. An IV drug-user is by definition an irresponsible person IMHO. I do not support any laws or use of government funds that make it any easier or more convenient for irresponsible people to get their hands on needles. Many old hanguns, and homemade zipguns represent a significant danger to someone who fires them due to their decrepit state. I don’t support a program that allows criminals to trade in their faulty handguns for new Rugers. For that same reason I don’t support any program that assists IV drug users pursue their illegal, irresponsible, and socially dangerous habit. ---
**Author:** ![71-Hour\_Achmed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/7/57b2e6/32.png) [@71-Hour\_Achmed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/71-Hour_Achmed)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490/40 "2001-04-03T20:55:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by handandahalf \* > \*\*I happen to live in Kansas City, a fairly large Midwestern metropolis, and there are a number of stores that supply hypodermic needles without the need for a prescription. Granted, almost all of them are agricultural or veterinarian supply stores, but ANYONE can buy needles, no questions asked. You’d be astonished at how inexpensive they are. If your average junkie was truly concerned more about his personal health than getting his next fix (which is disproved by the fact that he is an addict), it would be an easy matter to acquire clean needles. \*\* It’s even easier than that. Fishing stores sell a little gadget named – I sh\*t you not – a “worm blower” _(stop thinking that, you pervert!)_. This is a hypodermic needle that is plugged into a little plastic squeeze bottle. You shove it into a worm and squeeze the bottle, thereby blowing a little air bubble into the worm, which keeps it floating off the bottom of the stream or lake into which you throw it (with appropriate fishing hook inserted, of course), and hence more visble to fish. The instant I first saw one, I thought, “hey, junkies must love these things.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-universal-right-to-shoot-ones-own-arms/60490.md?page=3)