# The university shooting headline I want to see: **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779 "2008-02-15T18:47:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/41 "2008-02-16T02:07:06Z")
Trying to arm everyone on campus is a great way to cut down on school shootings of the nutcase variety and greatly increase the number of school shootings of the “Oops, I thought…” variety. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/42 "2008-02-16T02:09:02Z")
[QUOTE=Starving Artist] Better yet, how about a dress code requiring everyone to wear bright red, yellow and blue? **I’m thinking it’s hard to work up a rage when you look like the sartorial version of a banjo.** [/QUOTE] [Apparently not](http://www.liquidgeneration.com/Media/Videos/Viral_Videos/Extreme/Cop_vs_Skater/). ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/43 "2008-02-16T02:19:47Z")
Actually, I had a brighter shade of blue in mind, but in this case I don’t really think it would have helped. And that car HAD to be an aggravating factor! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/44 "2008-02-16T02:20:16Z")
[QUOTE=Stealth Potato] …_what_? He’s a lunatic for wanting to extend the right of responsible adults to carry to their university campuses? Are you sure you’re replying to the right post? Your reply just seems so incongruous I’m having a hard time believing it. :dubious: [/QUOTE] Here’s your sign. My university [has banned firearms on campus](http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2007/oct/21/packing-heat-concealed-handgun-permits-on-the/) and we also have the [Center for the Study and Prevention of Violence](http://www.colorado.edu/cspv/). Two of my roommates attended Columbine (one of them was at Columbine at the time) and I have heard their stories first hand. Our [Natural Hazards Center](http://www.colorado.edu/hazards/) sent a close friend of mine to Virginia Tech during the week after the shootings to assemble and document their stories. I am proud of CUs stance with respect to disaster preparedness and would refuse to attend a university that allowed firearms on campus. If a graduate student in _sociology_ (I hope you understand the irony in that) can methodically massacre students with a shotgun apparently unprovoked, it is clear to me that a pistol in a backpack is not going to provide the readiness required to counter such a threat. The best we can do is try to prevent them, and accept that we will never fully be able to while simultaneously protecting freedoms (although, as a technologist, it seems that some clever, non-invasive ways may be on the horizon). Adding more guns to the situation is not prevention, it is inflammation. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/45 "2008-02-16T02:35:37Z")
[QUOTE=cricetus] Trying to arm everyone on campus is a great way to cut down on school shootings of the nutcase variety and greatly increase the number of school shootings of the “Oops, I thought…” variety. [/QUOTE] Christ, it’s just one strawman after another, isn’t it? Nobody’s trying to arm “everyone on campus.” We simply advocate allowing licensed students to carry on campus, **just as they can already carry everywhere else**. So far, expanding the right to carry has **not** greatly increased either accidental or intentional shootings. Why do you think college campuses would be any different, especially considering that the students who would carry on campus are already carrying off-campus? [QUOTE=alterego] My university [has banned firearms on campus](http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2007/oct/21/packing-heat-concealed-handgun-permits-on-the/) and we also have the [Center for the Study and Prevention of Violence](http://www.colorado.edu/cspv/). Two of my roommates attended Columbine (one of them was at Columbine at the time) and I have heard their stories first hand. Our [Natural Hazards Center](http://www.colorado.edu/hazards/) sent a close friend of mine to Virginia Tech during the week after the shootings to assemble and document their stories. I am proud of CUs stance with respect to disaster preparedness and would refuse to attend a university that allowed firearms on campus. If a graduate student in _sociology_ (I hope you understand the irony in that) can methodically massacre students with a shotgun apparently unprovoked, it is clear to me that a pistol in a backpack is not going to provide the readiness required to counter such a threat. [/quote] Surely you cannot believe that a policy prohibiting guns will stop these mass shooters, then. Why do you think banning guns on campus is a good idea? > [@](#): > > The best we can do is try to prevent them, and accept that we will never fully be able to while simultaneously protecting freedoms (although, as a technologist, it seems that some clever, non-invasive ways may be on the horizon). Adding more guns to the situation is not prevention, it is inflammation. Any technological measure to scan the persons, clothes or possessions of students entering an area **is invasive** , and it does **not** respect freedoms. I will never consider such things acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/46 "2008-02-16T02:52:17Z")
[QUOTE=T\_SQUARE] You may have missed the **counter** -sniper part of my post. My point is, a citizen with a little .38 isn’t going to take out a tower sniper but might help in the more common nut in a classroom case. [/QUOTE] I heard it. It is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/47 "2008-02-16T02:56:01Z")
[QUOTE=Stealth Potato] Christ, it’s just one strawman after another, isn’t it? Nobody’s trying to arm “everyone on campus.” We simply advocate allowing licensed students to carry on campus, **just as they can already carry everywhere else**. [/QUOTE] All right, let’s try it this way: the amount of people killed by guns is directly proportional to the number of people with guns. Hence, more armed people results in more gun deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Club\_33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Club\_33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Club_33)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/48 "2008-02-16T03:01:09Z")
[QUOTE=SisterCoyote] You know, there are several “locations” at Disneyland (and I suppose probably Disneyworld, though I’m not up on their culture) that have basically this dress code. And I’m not aware of any shootings at DL (stabbings, yes. Shootings, no.) [/QUOTE] Are you referring to employees only or guests as well? Because as far as guests go, there is no dress code to speak of, other than no suggestive clothing, inappropriate slogans, or costumes on adults. All black is perfectly fine, otherwise they would never have goth day at the park. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/49 "2008-02-16T03:04:31Z")
Suicide is pretty melodramatic. It is best not to mention it. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/50 "2008-02-16T03:10:03Z")
I’d guess that if students were allowed to carry handguns on campus, hardly any of them would actually _do_ it. There would be a few people, a very small group, who knew how to properly and responsibly operate a handgun, and who’d exercise their right to carry one. Just like the non-college population. The average person doesn’t carry. A small percentage carry concealed weapons (_legally_ with a permit.) And some carry handguns illegal, and use them for criminal purposes. But these people are going to do that regardless of the law - they’re criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/51 "2008-02-16T03:14:03Z")
[QUOTE=cricetus] All right, let’s try it this way: the amount of people killed by guns is directly proportional to the number of people with guns. Hence, more armed people results in more gun deaths. [/QUOTE] Bullshit. Give me one reason to believe that. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/52 "2008-02-16T03:42:41Z")
Just compare the number of gun deaths in 1300 to the number of gun deaths now! It’s a pretty telling statistic. Seriously, there’s too much noise on the web with cherry-picked stats on both sides to find a set that seem reasonably accurate and telling. My logic is predicated on the assumption that drunken-asshole-takes-gun-shoots-wife, kid-finds-gun-blows-head-off, etc., are far, far more common than armed-hero-shoots-school-shooter stories. The fact is that however common they seem, school shootings are rare compared to ordinary fuckwads killing themselves and others. It’s just common sense to assume more guns mean more gun deaths and more gun on purposes, the way more cars mean more traffic accidents. The notion that more guns would reduce gun deaths suggests that nutjobs would either think twice before shooting up a school and taking their own life and/or that someone would always be ready to take them out, and I find it very hard to believe that that would happen so frequently it would reverse the deaths that occur simply because n% of gun owners will accidentally or on purpose waste themselves or others. YMMV. I’m not particularly a gun control person, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![T\_SQUARE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@T\_SQUARE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T_SQUARE)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/53 "2008-02-16T04:18:38Z")
[QUOTE=bannerrefugee] I heard it. It is stupid. [/QUOTE] God damn you are an idiot. You said: What about the UT sniper? CC didn’t stop him. I said: Well, that was a sniper. That’s not really what we are talking about. No one is saying CC on campus will stop all lunitics, or even most of them. You: That’s stupid. This is like claiming in a debate about seatbelts that seatbelts didn’t help Dale Earnhardt so why bother? For the record, no one here thinks a few armed citizens will save a university from an artillery barrage either. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/54 "2008-02-16T04:28:40Z")
> [@](#): > > 8:04 a.m Kip Kinkel placed in custody by Dan Bishop. > A bunch of kids were on top of Kip on the floor pinning him down. Kinkel was identified as the shooter. Bishop got the other kids off Kip. A student that had been on top of Kip got up and punched Kip in the face. Kip made statements to the effect: “I just want to die.” Bishop searched Kip and handcuffed him. Kip was advised of his Miranda rights. > **[Who Is Kip Kinkel? - Chronology | The Killer At Thurston High | FRONTLINE | PBS](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kinkel/kip/cron.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/55 "2008-02-16T07:40:45Z")
[QUOTE=alterego] I’ve never met someone with this attitude in real life, and I think you are a fucking lunatic. ex-Navy, qualified duty gunnersmate, currently attending a university. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry you think so. I would ask that you reread what I said, but this debate is governed by emotion, so it’s somewhat pointless to do so. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/56 "2008-02-16T07:46:17Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] I’m sorry you think so. I would ask that you reread what I said, but this debate is governed by emotion, so it’s somewhat pointless to do so. [/QUOTE] Alright Descartes. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/57 "2008-02-16T07:49:47Z")
Excuse me? What I posted is hardly unreasonable. What does philosophy,or math, for that matter, have to do with it? I understand what I propose is a dramatic change from the norm. So are school shootings. If you have something substantive to object to, please do. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/58 "2008-02-16T15:50:52Z")
[QUOTE=T\_SQUARE] God damn you are an idiot. [/QUOTE] Thanks Are you assuming spree killers are all going to start shooting people the same way? Right back at you ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/59 "2008-02-16T18:12:17Z")
I like the part about how we should ban guns on campus but they are not about gun control. I wonder why so many that will have the smallest chance of danger from concealed carry are so terrified and those who should be most in fear, ( police officers in the street ) are not. We all know the Police Chiefs who’s jobs are political go with the party line but that is not the opinion of every single one of the officers I have personally asked and I ask every one I can. ( hundreds so far ) They think it is fine or actually want to see more of it. ---
**Author:** ![Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crocodiles_And_Boulevards)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2008, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779/60 "2008-02-19T08:42:44Z")
After living abroad for some time now, I have to admit it’s pretty damn disgusting how much FEAR is soaked into just living in the USA these days. To be honest, I do kind of blame guns. Maybe it’s just a product of living in countries where gun-crime is virtually unheard of due to the complete, utter lack of personal armaments. My personal feelings aside, I wonder if you were to allow school children/college students to be armed, would you see a resultant “escalation” factor from the school shooters? Kind of like how the criminal element becomes more sophisticated/deadly as police efforts improve? In theory, that is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-university-shooting-headline-i-want-to-see/437779.md?page=2)