# The Uranium Fiasco: Incompetence or Disinformation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163 "2003-03-26T00:34:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/41 "2003-03-28T13:41:18Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] Scylla, don’t call people names in GD. I would prefer it if you and Xeno took your personal tiff to the Pit. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/42 "2003-03-28T13:57:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Report never existed. We (or, more accurately) [**zigaretten**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=170136&perpage=50&pagenumber=2) covered this. The report did exist. In a thread which seemed to have morphed into an attempt to discredit **Scylla** ’s argument by pointing out that Hersh made an unsubstantiated claim, and has offered nothing in proof not one but two sets of third-hand rumors, we will all benefit if we stick to the truth. That having been said, WTF? If we accept whatever we read at face value, aren’t we falling into the same error that Bush seems to have done? Bush took the word of British intelligence, and according our merry band of left-wing hysterics, this becomes evidence that he is either incompetent or corrupt. But they are willing to take the word of a reporter, and the best they can come up with in defense is to point to a missing ‘s’ in **Scylla** ’s post and claim that this invalidates every point he makes. I reiterate - WTF? And then even less coherent ranting about how the war isn’t about weapons of mass destruction, or maybe it is because nukes aren’t weapons of mass destruction, and so Bush is lying when he says they either are or aren’t. Or something. As I said before, this doesn’t resonate with the American middle. There was an intelligence failure. It happens. It is rather similar to the stories about Iraqis throwing babies out of incubators in the first Gulf War. It didn’t (apparently) happen. It also (clearly) didn’t matter. The first Gulf War was justified; so is this one. YMMV, but I doubt if any moderates will care if it does. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/43 "2003-03-28T14:48:13Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by **Shodan** :_ > > Bush took the word of British intelligence, and according our merry band of left-wing hysterics, this becomes evidence that he is either incompetent or corrupt. But they are willing to take the word of a reporter… Well, speaking as a left-wing hysteric, I have to say I base my opinion that the false intelligence regarding Niger was used by the administration to reinforce the “nuclear weapons program underway” gambit _not_ on the word of a reporter, but on the words of Colin Powell, U.S. Sec. of State, and of George W. Bush, President of the U.S. Here are undeniable facts:[ul][_]The “intelligence” was a forgery so poorly done that it could have been refuted by an internet search.[_]Despite the poor quality of the forgery, it was vetted and forwarded to the State Department by US intelligence experts.[_]Despite the long odds against those intelligence experts having been fooled by that forgery, it was[list=a][_]used to brief a Senate committee,[_]given to the Secretary of State as valid intelligence to be presented to the United Nations,[_]and given to the President, who used it in the performance of his Executive duties as additional material in support of a US-led invasion of a sovereign nation.[/list=a]Subsequent to its presentation by the Secretary of State, the IAEA characterized the forgery as _depressingly bad_[/ul]Put those facts together, and I think they have to point to either severe incompetence throughout the process, and particularly on the part of US intelligence, or amazing arrogance and disregard for diplomatic consequences at minimum in the highest levels of US intelligence, and possibly on the part of the Secretary of State and of the Chief Executive himself. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/44 "2003-03-29T00:25:18Z")
Yes, indeed, **Shodan** , mistakes happen. Blunders happen as well. Then, of course, there are jaw-dropping, awesome, thunderous, amazingly stupid mistakes. If we are to take this whole episode as an error, rather than an excercise in mendacity, it would fall in that latter category. On the other hand, as an excercise in mendacity it has the same characteristics: any chucklewit could see through it. Be that as it may, Fearless Misleader exploited the nuclear bomb aspect of this for all it was worth, which, it turns out, wasn’t diddly squat. If I had a dollar for every time one of the Usual Suspects raised the spectre of a nuclear mushroom over Akron in those first weeks I would be a happy guy. The question this raises for the present moment? Our intelligence sources would seem to be, at best, unreliable. (That is as kindly a euphemism as the situation deserves.) Without offering any sources, Fearless Misleader insists that he _knows_ that Saddam has WMDs. Not a shred of doubt exists in his mind. Another man, one given to second thoughts and prone to re-examine positions shown to be dubious, might reconsider. Such a man, I fear, does not occupy the Oval Office. As much as you might wish to fix attention on Mr. Hersh and his presumed failings, the facts of the matter are clear to the point of being stark. Utter nonsense was offered to the American people in support of war, the single most dreadful decision that can be contemplated. As to the fiasco regarding the IAEA report, I do recall the defense offered by you and **Zig**. I found it wanting then, on the basis that the man who wrote the report most likely knows what it says. Believe what you will. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/45 "2003-03-29T00:30:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaudere \* > \*\*[Moderator Hat ON] > > Scylla, don’t call people names in GD. I would prefer it if you and Xeno took your personal tiff to the Pit. > > [Moderator Hat OFF] \*\* My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/46 "2003-03-29T00:45:50Z")
> [@](#): > > If I had a dollar for every time one of the Usual Suspects raised the spectre of a nuclear mushroom over Akron in those first weeks I would be a happy guy. Boy, does THAT make me feel important, here. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/47 "2003-03-29T01:47:04Z")
Flee! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/48 "2003-03-29T11:06:44Z")
—As I said before, this doesn’t resonate with the American middle. There was an intelligence failure. It happens. It is rather similar to the stories about Iraqis throwing babies out of incubators in the first Gulf War. It didn’t (apparently) happen. It also (clearly) didn’t matter. The first Gulf War was justified; so is this one.— That conclusion is neither here nor there, though I agree with it (for reasons other than the President and reasons other than permitted by the U.N. charter). The question is whether false evidence was used to sell to WMD angle harder than it deserved. It seems that it was, and the question is: was it intentional (probably not) and if not, who is responsible for its uncritical usage? It seems that the CIA always had its doubts about the veracity of the documents > **[The Washington Post: Breaking News, World, US, DC News and Analysis](https://www.washingtonpost.com/?language=printer)** > > Breaking news and analysis on politics, business, world national news, entertainment more. In-depth DC, Virginia, Maryland news coverage including traffic, weather, crime, education, restaurant reviews and more. but… The CIA analyists felt pressured to present a particular case > **[A NATION AT WAR: INTELLIGENCE; C.I.A. Aides Feel Pressure In Preparing Iraqi...](https://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/23/world/a-nation-at-war-intelligence-cia-aides-feel-pressure-in-preparing-iraqi-reports.html)** > > Some analysts at Central Intelligence Agency say they felt pressured to make their intelligence reports on Iraq conform to Bush administration policies; debate was renewed after disclosure by Dr Mohamed ElBaradei, head of International Atomic Energy... But the Times can’t get any of them to go on record, even though many are threatening to quit. So… not too awful conclusive, but the second allegation is a little disturbing: intelligence sources shouldn’t feel pressured to find certain intelligence to be true merely because we want to make a case (especially when, as alleged in this case, the forger may have been looking to make a quick buck by selling documents they knew we wanted). We are supposed to be building a case out of what they find, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/49 "2003-03-29T11:13:32Z")
Anybody else remember the news story about Rumsfeld, dissatisfied with the CIA’s failure to find what he _knew_ was there, wanted to assign some military intelligence to the task? Does it get any more blatant? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/50 "2003-03-29T12:11:25Z")
What, like this? [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/04/september11/main520830.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/04/september11/main520830.shtml) > [@](#): > > With the intelligence all pointing toward bin Laden, Rumsfeld ordered the military to begin working on strike plans. And at 2:40 p.m., the notes quote Rumsfeld as saying he wanted “best info fast. Judge whether good enough hit S.H.” – meaning Saddam Hussein – “at same time. Not only UBL” – the initials used to identify Osama bin Laden. > > Now, nearly one year later, there is still very little evidence Iraq was involved in the Sept. 11 attacks. But if these notes are accurate, that didn’t matter to Rumsfeld. > > “Go massive,” the notes quote him as saying. “Sweep it all up. Things related and not.” [http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0147/vest.php](http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0147/vest.php) > [@](#): > > But according to intelligence and diplomatic sources, Powell—as well as George Tenet—was infuriated by a private intelligence endeavor arranged by Wolfowitz in September. Apparently obsessed with proving a convoluted theory put forth by American Enterprise Institute adjunct fellow Laurie Mylroie that ties Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein to the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, Wolfowitz, according to a veteran intelligence officer, dispatched former director of central intelligence and cabalist James Woolsey to the United Kingdom, tasking him with gathering additional “evidence” to make the case. Woolsey was also asked to make contact with Iraqi exiles and others who might be able to beef up the case that hijacker Mohammed Atta was working with Iraqi intelligence to plan the September 11 attacks, as well as the subsequent anthrax mailings. [http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2002/10/29102002161249.asp](http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2002/10/29102002161249.asp) > [@](#): > > Washington, 29 October 2002 (RFE/RL) – The administration of U.S. President George W. Bush, reportedly at odds with the Central Intelligence Agency over the threat of Iraq and its alleged links to Al-Qaeda, is taking intelligence matters into its own hands. > > Last week, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld revealed at a briefing that the Pentagon has set up a new intelligence office dedicated to digging for links between the government of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and international terrorist groups, such as Osama bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda network. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/51 "2003-03-29T12:18:55Z")
Always encouraging to see an Aussie sober up long enough to type a coherent post.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/52 "2003-03-29T12:52:43Z")
Condescend much **luc**? Then again, I guess it’s good to see a merkin who isn’t so fat that his fingers can’t reach the keyboard. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/53 "2003-03-29T14:11:07Z")
Problem isn’t reaching the keyboard, problem is typing one letter at a time. Shouldn’t you get up to shake hands with the unemployed? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/54 "2003-03-29T14:33:44Z")
(Okay, the idiom is getting beyond me here. I’m guessing that the first sentence means that no matter how fat you were, you could still type with your dick. I can’t follow the “Shouldn’t you get up” part.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/55 "2003-03-29T14:45:14Z")
Knew I should have typed more slowly. First takes off on the idea of having very fat fingers. Hence, impact area being larger than is convenient when trying to impact a particular key. In my case, using Mr. Happy would not be an improvement. Second refers to slang relayed to me by an Aussie amigo, in reference to taking a whizz, thereby using an object sadly “unemployed”. Please be assured I am assuming that the reputation of Australians for having a sense of humor that is not easily offended is not overstated. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/56 "2003-03-29T15:10:55Z")
Cut it out **elucidator**. Now you’re insulting me, personally, and that part I can handle. Quit the “Australian” generalisation shit. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/57 "2003-03-29T15:14:59Z")
Wow. Was that badly worded. I meant: Insult me personally, and I can handle that. Quit the “Australian” generalisation shit. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/58 "2003-03-29T15:29:47Z")
Apparently that particular generalization, having to do with sense of humor, is overstated. It was never my intenton to actually insult Australians, and I regret that this escaped you. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/59 "2003-03-29T15:57:27Z")
I guess you just see this as practised rhetoric, even against people that agree with you, and provide cites in favor of your case, like I did. Count my exit as due to “friendly fire”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163/60 "2003-03-30T21:23:05Z")
OK, maybe this thread is dying a natural death, but I think I will open the coffin one more time to point something out. > [@](#): > > As to the fiasco regarding the IAEA report, I do recall the defense offered by you and Zig. I found it wanting then, on the basis that the man who wrote the report most likely knows what it says. Believe what you will. After you claimed that the > [@](#): > > Report never existed. It seems to me that if the report never existed, you would be hard put to find the author and determine what he said. These kind of charges - ‘Does this intelligence failure mean that Bush is corrupt, incompetent, or both?’ - are perceived rather similarly to the “Clinton arranged for his political opponents to be murdered” stuff that was flying about a few years back. It is too clearly an overstatement of the worst possible interpretation of stuff that has never been adequately proven by people who will believe anything bad about Bush. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uranium-fiasco-incompetence-or-disinformation/164163.md?page=4)