# The US Christian Military? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608 "2008-07-07T20:24:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/1 "2008-07-07T20:24:29Z")
[Anderson Cooper blog](http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/07/07/the-us-christian-military/) > [@](#): > > Is the United States Military becoming a Christian organization? That’s what one U.S. soldier tells us. > > \ > > Specialist Hall is suing the Department of Defense and former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld for failing to protect his religious freedom. He says the military discriminates against non-Christians and his rights under the First Amendment were denied. > > Hall has served two tours in Iraq as a gunner. He’s back at Fort Riley now only because he says his life was threatened after it became public he is an atheist. > > \ > > Hall says he was denied a promotion because of his beliefs, and felt his life was in jeopardy. He says the army assigned him a full-time bodyguard because of threats. > > At Thanksgiving, Hall refused to pray with his table and says an officer told him to go sit somewhere else. > > Also, after he was nearly killed when his humvee was attacked, he says a fellow soldier asked him, “do you believe in Jesus now?” > > Hall says he was ostracized because he didn’t embrace fundamentalist Christianity. These kinds of allegations and lawsuits are becoming more and more common and increasingly disturbing. What the hell is going on the military? It was a decidedly religiose culture when I was in (mid-80s), but there were _some_ open atheists and they didn’t get harrassed for it (not to the point where they needed bodyguards anyway). Have things changed? has military culture become politicized to the point where only right wing fundies need apply? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/2 "2008-07-07T20:38:31Z")
_Details_, a fashion magazine not known for the world’s most hard hitting journalism, actually had one of the best articles I’ve read on this. Unfortunately it’s not available online, but it was a few months ago and IIRC the article title was ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS or something to that effect. What’s particularly ironic to me about these articles is the disconnect between “turn the other cheek” and “drop a payload on a civilian neighborhood” among military Christians. (Note that I’m not necessarily a pacifist and I certainly believe in having a leading world military, but then I’m not an evangelical either.) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/3 "2008-07-07T20:56:21Z")
**Sampiro** , don’t know whether this will help or not, but [this site](http://men.style.com/) appears to be a combination of both GQ and, apparently, the Details magazine you alluded to. Here is a link to the Details part of it: [**Details**](http://men.style.com/details/) And more specifically to their: [ARCHIVE](http://men.style.com/details/features) If that’s correct, maybe you can find the article you referenced? Sounds like an interesting read… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/4 "2008-07-07T20:58:52Z")
This stuff seems to bubble to the surface every once in a while, and they usually seem to be of the Protty persuasion with a strong Calvinist bent. What about all the Catholics? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/5 "2008-07-07T21:06:29Z")
Could it be that there is a hierarchy of sorts with Christians on top, other faiths somewhere in the middle, and atheists on the bottom? Maybe even a sort of (deep?) division between atheists/soft believers and those for whom faith (of whatever kind) is an important part of their lives? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/6 "2008-07-07T21:44:04Z")
Actually, this seems to be a continuation of the efforts of some foundation I never heard of (the Military Religious Freedom Foundation - [cite)](http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/about2.html) This isn’t the first time - > [@](#): > > Weinstein previously sued the Air Force for acts he said illegally imposed Christianity on its students at the academy. A federal judge threw out that lawsuit in 2006. Those issues are being raised in the Hall lawsuit. [Cite.](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,335455,00.html) Maybe they will have better luck with this one, or maybe publicity is all they are after. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/7 "2008-07-07T21:55:24Z")
Publicity for what? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/8 "2008-07-07T21:58:30Z")
Their cause. Or perhaps fund-raising - like I said, their previous law suit didn’t go anywhere, so maybe they need the cash. Or maybe they are like that O’Hair bitch, and just enjoy the attention. Trolls, in other words. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/9 "2008-07-07T22:06:45Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Their cause. Or perhaps fund-raising - like I said, their previous law suit didn’t go anywhere, so maybe they need the cash. Or maybe they are like that O’Hair bitch, and just enjoy the attention. Trolls, in other words. [/QUOTE] Wht do you imagine their “cause” is? It’s not atheism. Many of the grievances from the Air Force Academy came from Catholics and Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/10 "2008-07-07T22:17:42Z")
This one is from an atheist. If you want to talk about this case, fine - go ahead. If not, fine - we can wait and see if this suit will get thrown out like the previous one did. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/11 "2008-07-07T22:28:35Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] This one is from an atheist. If you want to talk about this case, fine - go ahead. If not, fine - we can wait and see if this suit will get thrown out like the previous one did. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] You were trying to suggest this case was connected to a greater atheistic cause. No such cause exists, and the complainant in this case (who did two tours of Iraq as a gunner, if that makes any difference) is not even asking for money. He just wants the harrassment to stop (and if he wasn’t being harrassed, then why was he assigned a bodyguard?). By the way, the Air Force Academy suit was dismissed only because the judge said the plaintiffs lacked standing because they no longer attended the Academy and could no longer be personally discriminated against, not because it was found that discrimination didn’t exist. It was thrown out on a technicality, not on merit. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/12 "2008-07-07T23:19:49Z")
But what about that Thou Shalt Not Kill business? What’s the explanation for that? ::d&r:: ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/13 "2008-07-07T23:32:49Z")
[QUOTE=An Arky] But what about that Thou Shalt Not Kill business? What’s the explanation for that? [/QUOTE] Because a more accurate translation is Thou Shall Not Murder. War with an enemy isn’t considered murder. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/14 "2008-07-07T23:35:01Z")
That depends greatly on who’s doing the considering and “collateral damage” is pushing it no matter how much it is rationalized. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/15 "2008-07-07T23:58:53Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] By the way, the Air Force Academy suit was dismissed only because the judge said the plaintiffs lacked standing because they no longer attended the Academy and could no longer be personally discriminated against, not because it was found that discrimination didn’t exist. It was thrown out on a technicality, not on merit. [/QUOTE] That’s an interesting point. I assume you will no longer be claiming that the Paula Jones lawsuit was dismissed for lack of merit. Oh, and cite? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/16 "2008-07-08T00:07:47Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] That’s an interesting point. I assume you will no longer be claiming that the Paula Jones lawsuit was dismissed for lack of merit. [/quote] Lack of standing and lack of merit are two different things. The PJ suit was dismissed because the judge said that _even if everything Jones was alleging was true,_ it still did not amount to sexual harrassment (because she did not allege either coersion or retribution). Lack of standing means you are not an allegedly injured party. In other words, I can’t sue the K-Mart if you slip and fall in front of it. Whether the K-Mart is actually lible for _your_ injury is neither here nor there with regard to _me_. > [@](#): > > Oh, and cite? [Moonie Times](http://www.washtimes.com/news/2006/oct/27/20061027-112923-9536r/) > [@](#): > > A federal judge yesterday threw out a lawsuit against the U.S. Air Force that contended evangelical Christian values were illegally pushed on Air Force Academy cadets. > > U.S. District Judge James A. Parker said the academy graduates who filed suit could not claim their First Amendment rights were violated because they no longer attended the academy. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/17 "2008-07-08T00:28:25Z")
As is often the case, you seem always to forget the interesting part - > [@](#): > > The settlement foreclosed the possibility that Clinton’s personal life would be reopened for public inspection at a sensational trial had the lawsuit dismissed in April been reinstated, as many lawyers involved believed it would be…Jones then asked the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to overturn the decision and, after Starr’s report came out, argued that Clinton’s alleged misconduct during the case justified a reversal. Two members of the three-judge panel appeared sympathetic during oral arguments last month and on Tuesday the court asked for the full transcript of Clinton’s Jan. 17 deposition in the case, which some lawyers close to the Jones camp interpreted as a sign that they were concerned about possible perjury by the president. IOW, he settled because the case was about to be reinstated. [Cite.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/jones111498.htm) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/18 "2008-07-08T00:38:26Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Or maybe they are like that O’Hair bitch, and just enjoy the attention. Trolls, in other words. [/QUOTE] Too bad that atheists don’t have good moral values like the religious :rolleyes: . ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/19 "2008-07-08T01:28:40Z")
When I enlisted decades ago, one wasn’t permitted to openly be an atheist. One’s records and dogtags said “no preference” where religion was listed. I remember one of the sergeants at the induction center screaming and cursing at a recruit that there were no fucking atheists in HIS army. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608/20 "2008-07-08T03:20:11Z")
I feel that I must be rather shielded from the brunt of nasty attitudes against atheists. I have never felt discriminated against for my lack of belief; the stories brought up here disturb me. What sort of religious accommodations must be provided to soldiers? Are there similar stories of discrimination in the military non-Christian religious persons? [QUOTE=Shodan] As is often the case, you seem always to forget the interesting part -IOW, he settled because the case was about to be reinstated. [Cite.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/jones111498.htm) [/QUOTE] I don’t at all see what Paula Jones has to do with the current case. We are not all **DtC** , you know – it isn’t your job to try to root out unrelated hypocrisy when this is the place for a particular debate. I should like to see the OP’s issue examined further. > [@Scumpup](#): > > I remember one of the sergeants at the induction center screaming and cursing at a recruit that there were no fucking atheists in HIS army. What could a recruit say in response to that sort of diatribe? Did you feel as if it it were common to hide one’s atheism? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-christian-military/455608.md?page=2)