The (US) economy: What should be done?

No, I don’t think that. I don’t know that there is one Republican policy, and depending on what you want to do, it might be better to give tax breaks to businesses or give rebates to consumers. I’m not really inclined to do either, except as part of a broad economic policy (ie, not in response to a possible recession).

That would be true only if rich folks did NOTHING with that money (eg, the hid it under their mattresses). Anything they do that injects the money back into the economy will “stimulate” it. It will just stimulate it in a different way (investments, more likely) than if you gave the same money to poor people (consumption, more likely).

History shows you to be wrong. From here:

The only one of those three periods which featured high deficit spending was the last one. IDK who you’re reading, but almost without fail, every non-partisan economics study that I’ve found supports tax cuts as a catalyst for growth, although if you’re a proponent of the Keynesian model of economics I doubt you’ll agree, fortunately real world experience demonstrates that interventionist government economic policy, much like communism, does not work very well. Now we just have to convince the Feds to return top their job as referee and leave the game to the players. :dubious:

Why do we ‘need’ that? Why does the market not ALREADY provide the capital where it is ‘needed’? Why would politicians know where the ‘need’ is better than the market?

Sure it does. In a cartoon world I suppose…

Maybe in the 50’s and 60’s…even in the 70’s. But today? Have you checked around lately? And no, I’m not kidding. It’s clear to me that you have even less knowledge of this subject than I do…and I’m just a network engineer.

Why is a duck not an elephant? We don’t ‘allocate’ wealth to the wealthy. That is the difference.

No…it simply spirals the economy into the wall we hit in the 70’s. As I said, I think both are bad and lead to Very Bad Things™ eventually, especially if left unchecked. But then you think Keynes Economic model is still valid so all I can say is…we disagree.

-XT

You said that tax cuts produce more tax revenue. Now you say that tax cuts stimulate growth. I agree that tax cuts stimulate growth… a little bit. The effect of trillions of dollars of deficit spending has more stimulant effect on the economy than taxcuts in an already low tax rate environment (histroically low rates).

The link is not working for me. Can you post a web address?

Wow. No wonder you are struggling with this. Reagan exploded the debt, as has GWB. The idea that the tax cuts could pay for themselves was pure nonsense. Seems like you are constantly able to find some excuse for why the country’s economic condition has been so awful under Reagan and GWB than the most parsimonious and obvious explanation.

BTW, where should I “note” that the economy was “trending upward”? The first graph is the federal debt as a percentage of the GDP, or gross domestic product, an index of the larger economy. The debt still shot upwards under Reagan and under Bush. If, as I think you are suggesting, there was a proportional increase in the “economy” and the debt, what should the line in the graph do? Think about it. Hint: if the increases in the two things are proportionally the same, the line would be flat.

When you say “Keynes” and “new Keynes” models what do you mean? What measure are you using for “out of favor”? How were they flawed “under our system”? What “system” are you talking about?

What is achieved by it? How is it necessary? Reagan’s economic performance is entirely based on shifting money from working slobs to the Gordon Geckos of the country. Reagan’s increase in payroll taxes took more money away from workers to form the Social Security trust fund, which has since been looted to fund the rest of government. We had a chance to pay it back and honor what is owed to American workers at the end of Clinton’s term in office. You may remember one of the candidates talking a fair bit about a “lockbox” and then getting mocked for it? Now Bush talks about the possibility of not honoring it at all: “There is no trust.”

Are you a big fan of generating two trillion in funds through increased taxes on workers and then turning around and giving that away in tax cuts that benefit the wealthy?

They wouldn’t. I am merely saying that there was once a time when the ultra rich were necessary for capitalism to work effectively. That is no longer the case.

In the real world, what has been the effect of Republican “supply side economics” other than unadulterated taxcuts?

So you think Keynesian economics is no longer relevant? Hayek and Friedman make some good points but economists have not adopted their condemnation of Keynesian economics wholesale. Monetarism also makes some good points, but its doesn’t disprove demand side economics (heck even supply side economics (the way it is supposed to be implemented instead of the way Republicans implement it) is really a version of demand side economics).

OK, what makes relying on the market to allocate wealth so great? It is the market allocating welath efficiently to CEOs like Mizilo?

I think that monetarism and Austrian school econmics have some good points to make but yes i think that Keynesian economic theory is still relevant (not entirely valid as originally conceived but still relevant).

The link isn’t working because I am a dumbass and forgot to paste the url into the Vb code.
Hopefully not so much a dumbass now.

You are correct in noting that my wording has been imprecise, for which I appologise. To put it all together:

Tax cuts stimulate economic growth, causing the economy to grow to the point that the tax revenue generated exceeds that which would have been generated by a higher tax rate on a smaller economy. “A smaller slice of a bigger pie” is how I’ve usually heard it expressed colloquially.

I hope that the Cato Institute isn’t what you had in mind when you expressed favor for non-partisan economic study.

I just used that link because I had it handy, but I’d be interested in your take on how a small “l” libertarian think tank is somehow partisan for either the Dems or the Pubbies.

Ah the Cato institute, an impartial organization with absolutely no agenda if I ever saw one. Too bad they are wrong about the effects of tax cuts on the tax base in the current taxing regime. Take a closer look at the 1923 and JFK tax cuts.

This is just plain wrong. The Bush appointed Fed Chairman clearly stated this in his recent congressional testimony.

Is that the only definition of “partisan” - either Democrat or Republican? Put it another way - if the Cato Institute is going to publish an economic study, can you predict in any way what the conclusions are going to be before you read it?

Well, based on this criteria can you honestly name ANY economic institute where predictions can’t be so made?? Seriously?

I found a relatively decent article on Wiki about Keynesian economics if anyone is interested. It doesn’t go into as much detail on the criticisms of Keynesian Economics as I’ve seen in other places (in other threads IIRC Sam Stone had some very good cites on this topic if he wanders in), but it has a good general overview.

Did I dispute that debt went up under Reagan? Or GW? I don’t recall doing so. I would say that the main reason the economic conditions under Reagan were ‘so awful’ can be adequately explained by the pretty well known fact that they were abysmal BEFORE he even took office. Are you claiming that the conditions got worse under Reagan than they already were under Carter? Or that the economic conditions under Reagan did not measurably improve from the time he took office until he left??? Or that the general trend in the economy has been upward since Reagan??? Seriously?

I suppose it depends on how we measure things. How are YOU measuring things that the general trend in the US economy hasn’t been upward since the 70’s? Here is one indicator in a graphic form I found on Wiki that seems to make the point. Maybe you want to talk about median household income? Well, here is another Wiki chart for that showing a general upward trend as well. What metrics do you want to use Hentor and we can see if there has been an upward trend in the economy since the 70’s or not. Ed. Found another chart that shows a general trend upward in income distribution in every category except those in the 10th percentile since the 70’s as well. Note that all of these charts are using constant dollars in their calculations. I know Wiki isn’t the best source but it was the best I could do tonight.

New Keynesian Economics .

By current main stream economic theories the older Keynesian model is pretty much out of favor. Tell you what…you find a cite that Keynesian Economic theory is still widely favored by main stream economists and I’ll search for a cite to the contrary tonight, time permitting.

Next…the flaws in Keynesian Economic theory with respect to our system. From my earlier Wiki cite on Keynesian economic theory:

I’m no economists mind, but in the college courses I took this seemed to be the main stream thinking of Keynes…that his model is more suited to a socialist or collectivist oriented economic structure. Of course, what I think is ‘main stream’ may be a lot different from you…that’s why I’m asking you to provide some cites as well so I can see where you are coming from on this.

I’m a big fan of economic growth…which I think a judicious use of tax cuts AND cutting government spending as well as a judicious use of de-regulation tends to spur on. There will always be down turns and recession…and during those periods things will be rough and less taxes will mean higher deficits. Eventually however the economy will recover and during the boom times we will have tax surpluses. My main problem with Bush is that he cut taxes AND radically increased spending (well, and got us into several foreign wars that are an anchor around are collective necks for years to come most likely). Reagan inherited an economy that was pretty much in the drink already…there was no way ANY president was going to initially not run a deficit if we were ever going to get out of the mess we were in at that time.
-XT

This forum is too smart for me. I can’t imagine why no one has even mentioned the trade deficit. Its not a good spot indicator, but long term, unless we start making stuff that the rest of the world wants to buy, we’re in trouble.

We kept things cooking the last 15 years or so by selling…consumer debt. Which we are excellent at generating. Congrats to Wall Street for figuring out they could sell loans (most of them mortgages or home equity loans) to foreign investors for a nice profit, especially if they could originate these loans via third party brokerages to unqualified creditors with little due diligence. I’ll bet you that a substantial ratio of corporate officers at consumer finance and investment companies have been shorting equities for some time as they knew they were building an unsustainable house of cards.

Too bad that many of those loans are worthless, and the world markets are starting to realize this. Our economy has been subsisting on easy credit, and while the Fed rate cuts and stimulus plan may alleviate some of the pain short term, its only exacerbating the bigger problem - we no longer create wealth or make stuff that the rest of the world wants to buy. Selling debt ain’t going to cut it anymore.

Solution?

(I have no freaking clue)

I have heard the neo con mantra many times…Deficits don’t matter. Is it true? I think we are finding out and it could be very ugly.
NAFTA greased the skids to ship jobs abroad. Good paying jobs have gone abroad rapidly. Is that good for America? Well for part of the country ,it is great. Profits in corporations have gone up immensely rewarding the few. That fundamentally changes America. We have a 2 tiered economy with the wealthy making out like the bandits they are and the middle class being diminished.
General Motors said they are rebuilding the auto industry . They are laying off 64,000 more workers. That is tearing down the industry. The work is still being done. It is in India and China now. Not long ago GM closed a plant with 3,000 workers. In another part of the paper it showed them opening a new plant with 3,000 workers in China Coincidence.

You know, if they’re going to do tax rebates, I’d prefer they do them so they actually matter. Stop the war in Iraq and use the chunk of change you had set aside for the war and distribute it evenly amongst everyone that has a Social Security number.

I don’t think it’s what should be done, but 10 thousand dollars for every man, woman, and child would go a lot better than 800 bucks for a single person and 1600 for a married couple.

There are 300 million people in the US (well, 300 million plus change). If you gave them all a $10k rebate…well, do the math. We aren’t likely to get that back just by leaving Iraq.

You’d have to ask a neo-con but I don’t think anyone is saying they don’t matter. I think the argument is that in the short term they don’t matter as long as the economy picks up again after a down turn. The reasoning is that in the short term you can run at a deficit because in the long term you will get more money in the form of taxes when the economy is booming.

This is a standard scare tactic from people who fear/hate globalization. The number of ACTUAL jobs going abroad is fairly minor. And most of them aren’t exactly ‘good paying’. This smacks of protectionism though. Why should business and consumers pay more to keep jobs that can be done cheaper overseas? Just to ensure that someone here has a job? Is it a right that your job should be protected and not subject to competition either here or overseas? What if your job is taken automation instead of foreign competition? This was the call to arms in the past after all, the same as now people fret and wring hands over off shoring of jobs. Should we protect jobs from robots as well as workers in India or China or whatever? Where does it end?

-XT

So…what suggestions do you have for people who have lost good production jobs to globalization, then? Are they supposed to go from $15 an hour assembly line jobs with GM to $5.75 minimum wage at the KwikiMart? Maybe they’re supposed to work three of those minimum-wage jobs to maintain their lifestyle?

Personally, I don’t give a good goddamn about the poor folks in India and China who need the jobs we’re exporting to them. They’re not me or my relatives or friends. Their economy is not the economy I actually have to live in. I’m tired of MY fucking democratically elected representative government considering the corporations more important than me and my fellow citizens (except for during that six months or so every four years when they all come grovelling for votes). I’m tired of so-called American corporations picking up and wandering off to the first country that promises them a cookie. Their corporate charters should be dissolved when that happens. Too fucking bad for their officers and investors. You want to make money as an American-chartered corporation? You’ll make it in the US or not at all.

Fuck 'em.

Kinda depends, XT. Its part of our Calvinist heritage than only those who work deserve our protection and support, and as little of that as we can possibly get away with. Yet, we have never had enough jobs, and looks like we will have less. Retrain? How many truck drivers do you think we can make into computer programmers? How long before they are standing around with signs saying “Will Code for Food?” If it takes five years to retrain for the new job and the worker if 60 years old, are they a candidate for retraining or a prospective Soylent Green?

It may be termed “socialism”, or “income redistribution”, I’m inclined to think of it as common decency.

There’s your problem…common decency has no place in free-market (i.e., “globalist”) capitalism, except as a short-term PR stunt.