# the US government is furious at Russia because they will sell Iran Tor-1 missiles **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2006, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648 "2006-05-29T19:22:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Minotaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Minotaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minotaurus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/1 "2006-05-29T19:22:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Russia’s defence minister has confirmed that Moscow intends to honour a controversial deal to supply Iran with surface-to-air missiles. > > Washington wants all countries to stop exporting weapons to Iran. Russia insists its short-range Tor-M1 system is purely defensive. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/5021304.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5021304.stm) We must all have sympathy with the Americans in this case. They simply don’t like that those nations they wants to attack are able to defend them selves with weapons newer than ones that predates ww2. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/2 "2006-05-29T20:11:45Z")
I agree. I think Iran has every right to defend itself with whatever weapons it wants, especially when rogue countries like the US are going around illegally invading and occupying sovereign nations in the Middle East. I don’t see where the US gets off thinking it has any authority to decide what kinds of weapons anyone else should be allowed to have. Frankly, I think the better armed Iran is, the better. The US needs to be put in check. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/3 "2006-05-29T21:42:05Z")
Much as I hate to agree with **Minotaurus** (at least it appears he’s at last discovered the Shift key)… If these missiles are, indeed, purely defensive, then I say good on both Russia and Iran. Perhaps if the US didn’t want the Iranians to acquire modern miliary technology (not to mention atomic weapons) they shouldn’t have set up the giant neon signs 50 yard from Iran’s border saying “Get Better Weapons, Or We Invade” (with a big arrow pointing at North Korea). ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/4 "2006-05-29T23:32:42Z")
I’d be less concerned if we were talking about a nation such as Pakistan, Indonesia, or Brazil. All chosen since I believe they all have nuclear weapons programs. None of which are making grandiose statements that imply a desire to either conquer a neighboring nation, or obliterate another nation. Do **Happy Clam** , and **Dio** really want to see Iran’s nuclear weapons program to prosper behind defenses made of the most modern weapons it can buy? I’m not sure I do, to be honest. If I weren’t concerned about Iran’s desire to conquer or obliterate other nations, I wouldn’t object to them getting any kind of defensive weapon systems. As it is - I’m not exactly happy. Of course, selling military technology to questionable regiemes is nothing new from Russia, nor the U.S. And frankly, given Russia’s budgetary problems, I’m not sure I can condemn them for it. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/5 "2006-05-29T23:45:45Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > I’d be less concerned if we were talking about a nation such as Pakistan, Indonesia, or Brazil. All chosen since I believe they all have nuclear weapons programs. None of which are making grandiose statements that imply a desire to either conquer a neighboring nation, or obliterate another nation. Which nation(s) is(are) Iran grandiosely stating they will conquer or obliterate? Why are you less concerned about Pakistan, which actually has nuclear weapons? Or India? Or, for heaven’s sake, France, which could reach the U.S. with their weapons? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/6 "2006-05-29T23:55:51Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Which nation(s) is(are) Iran grandiosely stating they will conquer or obliterate? > > Why are you less concerned about Pakistan, which actually has nuclear weapons? Or India? Or, for heaven’s sake, France, which could reach the U.S. with their weapons? **Frank** , are you trying to say that you don’t see the rhetoric coming out of Iran recently as being inflammatory, and close to saying they’ll obliterate Israel as soon as they have the capability? I doubt I’m the only person who’s been viewing their rhetoric that way. **If** Pakistan were to use their nukes they’re not going to attack the US, anyways. They’re going to attack India over the Kashmir. (And vice-versa for India) Frankly, I doubt that either nation is so lost to sanity as to want to consider such an option. Likewise, while France has nuclear weapons, what scenario do you imagine for them using such weapons - especially against the US? ---
**Author:** ![Minotaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Minotaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minotaurus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/7 "2006-05-29T23:59:44Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > I’d be less concerned if we were talking about a nation such as Pakistan, Indonesia, or Brazil. All chosen since I believe they all have nuclear weapons programs. None of which are making grandiose statements that imply a desire to either conquer a neighboring nation, or obliterate another nation. > > Do **Happy Clam** , and **Dio** really want to see Iran’s nuclear weapons program to prosper behind defenses made of the most modern weapons it can buy? I’m not sure I do, to be honest. > > If I weren’t concerned about Iran’s desire to conquer or obliterate other nations, I wouldn’t object to them getting any kind of defensive weapon systems. As it is - I’m not exactly happy. > > Of course, selling military technology to questionable regiemes is nothing new from Russia, nor the U.S. And frankly, given Russia’s budgetary problems, I’m not sure I can condemn them for it. 2005 “World Without Zionism” speech > [@](#): > > Translation of phrase “Wiped Off the Map” > There is some question about whether the English idiom “wiped off the map” is an accurate translation of what Ahmadinejad said in Farsi. Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, translates the Farsi phrase as: > > The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).[4] > The Middle East Media Research Institute translates the phrase similarly: > > [T]his regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.[5] > On 20 February 2006, Iran’s foreign minister denied that Tehran wanted to see Israel “wiped off the map,” saying Ahmadinejad had been misunderstood. “Nobody can remove a country from the map. This is a misunderstanding in Europe of what our president mentioned,” Manouchehr Mottaki told a news conference, speaking in English, after addressing the European Parliament. “How is it possible to remove a country from the map? He is talking about the regime. We do not recognise legally this regime,” he said. [6][7][8] > > [edit] > Interpretation of speech as call for genocide > The speech was interpreted by some as a call for genocide. For example, Canada’s then Prime Minister Paul Martin said, “this threat to Israel’s existence, this call for genocide coupled with Iran’s obvious nuclear ambitions is a matter that the world cannot ignore.”[9] > > Cole interprets the speech as a call for the end of Jewish rule of Israel, but not necessarily for the removal of Jewish people: > > His statements were morally outrageous and historically ignorant, but he did not actually call for mass murder (Ariel Sharon made the “occupation regime” in Gaza “vanish” last summer) or for the expulsion of the Israeli Jews to Europe [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud\_Ahmadinejad\_and\_Israel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/8 "2006-05-30T00:11:31Z")
[RUSSIA SIGNALS DELAY IN TOR-M1 TO IRAN](http://www.menewsline.com/stories/2006/may/05_29_1.html) [US urges Russia to reconsider missile export to Iran](http://english.eastday.com/eastday/englishedition/node20665/node20669/node22812/node112261/node112263/userobject1ai2064685.html) > [@](#): > > The United States on Friday urged Russia to reconsider its decision to honor its commitment to sell Iran the Tor-M1 air defense missile system. > > “We would hope that Russia would take a second look at this issue,” State Department spokesman Sean McCormack told a news briefing. Personally, I would prefer it if Iran (or North Korea or Sudan or Pakistan) was not able to purchase such weapons. I don’t see why the US shouldn’t make its views known or even throw a couple of wrenches into the deal. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/9 "2006-05-30T01:05:10Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > **Frank** , are you trying to say that you don’t see the rhetoric coming out of Iran recently as being inflammatory, and close to saying they’ll obliterate Israel as soon as they have the capability? For the former,certainly; for the latter, I’m not as certain. There is nothing new about inflammatory rhetoric directed at Israel from the Muslim states. How do you compare such rhetoric to that directed at Iran from President Bush? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/10 "2006-05-30T01:10:34Z")
If I were an Iranian? Pretty damned worrisome. I never said, **Frank** , that I viewed Iran’s desire for the best available military equipment as irrational. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/11 "2006-05-30T01:22:15Z")
A short test: 1. Which country is more likely to undergo abrupt revolution and/or have its government replaced by an irrational tyrant (or junta)? a. US b. Iran 1. Who would you rather have in possession of sophisticated weaponry, possibly including nuclear bombs? a. a democratically elected president and congress b. a military junta c. an ultra-conservative Islamic theocracy which makes implicit and explicit threats against its neighbours d. a dictator 1. How disingenuous are the Iran apologists a. enough to make even the Jihadists puke b. 7 c. infinitely more than their American counterparts d. slightly less than **Diogenes** ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/12 "2006-05-30T01:24:19Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > I never said, **Frank** , that I viewed Iran’s desire for the best available military equipment as irrational. Rational or not, you appear to view it as a bad thing, due to Iran’s sabre-rattling at Israel. Iran, even with nuclear weapons, is no more a threat to the U.S. than Pakistan or India or France or Israel, and it is none of our business how they choose to arm themselves any more than it is our business how the aforementioned choose to arm themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/13 "2006-05-30T01:28:58Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > A short test: > > 1. Which country is more likely to undergo abrupt revolution and/or have its government replaced by an irrational tyrant (or junta)? > > a. US > b. Iran Neither. Iran’s government has been pretty stable for 25 years, and, actually, should a revolution occur, it would be a pro-Western revolution. > [@](#): > > 1. Who would you rather have in possession of sophisticated weaponry, possibly including nuclear bombs? > > a. a democratically elected president and congress > b. a military junta > c. an ultra-conservative Islamic theocracy which makes implicit and explicit threats against its neighbours > d. a dictator None of the above. > [@](#): > > 1. How disingenuous are the Iran apologists > > a. enough to make even the Jihadists puke > b. 7 > c. infinitely more than their American counterparts > d. slightly less than **Diogenes** Not as disingenuous as yourself. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/14 "2006-05-30T03:18:47Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Not as disingenuous as yourself. Wow, **Frank** , you turned that right around into… a complete non-sequitor. _Ooooohhh, burn_. And next are you going to tell us that you’re made of natural rubber latex and **Karl** from the hooves of the late **Barbaro**? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/15 "2006-05-30T04:03:48Z")
John Bolton, US ambassador to the UN says [the Iranians already have enough U235 for a bomb:](http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060315/NEWS07/603150342/1009) > [@](#): > > U.S. Ambassador John Bolton said his government’s patience with negotiations is running out. > > He said Iran used the time involved in the talks with France, Germany and Britain to enrich enough uranium to produce nuclear weapons. Now it’s just a matter of putting it together, and Tel Aviv is DOOMED! Or Bolton and his buddies _could_ be [continuing](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5717546&highlight=Bolton+iran#post5717546) to lie about Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/16 "2006-05-30T04:20:12Z")
I don’t see any reason why Iran shouldn’t be able to go weapons shopping. However, I also don’t see any reason why the US shouldn’t be able to ask a nominal ally to decline to sell weapons to Iran, particularly anti-aircraft missiles (I doubt anyone would care about a shipment of Kalashnikovs). Russia, being a sovereign nation and all that, will no doubt make a decision based on what Putin thinks is in his best interest, and that will be that. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/17 "2006-05-30T07:19:42Z")
What’s the matter with TOW missiles? Aren’t those good enough any more? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/18 "2006-05-30T09:21:08Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Or Bolton and his buddies _could_ be [continuing](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5717546&highlight=Bolton+iran#post5717546) to lie about Iran. It’s gotten to the point where you have to assume this crew is lying anytime their lips are moving. To refine uranium to bomb-grade quality, don’t they need something like thousands of centrifuges that they don’t have? It isn’t like that sort of stuff can be thrown together overnight. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/19 "2006-05-30T12:18:40Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > To refine uranium to bomb-grade quality, don’t they need something like thousands of centrifuges that they don’t have [Maybe not for much longer…](http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/laser-enrichment-could-cut-cost-of-nuclear-power/2006/05/26/1148524888448.html) And it’s the fundamental two-facedness of the US regime that’s so amusing. Who sold arms to the mujahideen to use against Russia? Hell, who sold arms to any petty dictator with a Rightist stance for so many years? Pigeons coming home to roost, is all. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2006, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648/20 "2006-05-30T16:54:25Z")
Y’know, just because the Bush administration opposes something doesn’t make it a good thing. Bush isn’t going to be president forever, and we’ll still have to deal with Iran after he’s gone. Just because Iran’s desire to get nuclear bombs is rational doesn’t mean we shouldn’t oppose it. Anyone who supports the Iranian nuclear program on the grounds that George Bush is against the Iranian nuclear program is a fucking idiot. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-government-is-furious-at-russia-because-they-will-sell-iran-tor-1-missiles/358648.md?page=2)