# The US is already a Libertarian society! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2000, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768 "2000-03-10T23:17:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/41 "2000-03-12T06:46:00Z")
**Erratum:** Precisely so. I’m arguing that “the economy” is an ownable thing because it has utility. Even the libertarians agree with me, because they insist on a market where coercion or fraud is restricted by a government. Since the government does indeed perform that utility, as the owners, the people are entitled by _libertarian theory itself_ to extract whatever price they can for that service, and spend it as they choose. * * * He’s the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armor, shouting ‘All Gods are Bastards!’ ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/42 "2000-03-12T06:48:00Z")
Let me clarify: _many_ libertarians agree that government has utility. ---
**Author:** ![techchick68](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@techchick68](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/techchick68)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/43 "2000-03-12T07:09:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Let me clarify: many libertarians agree that government has utility. What exactly are you trying to say here, Singledad? I need to know what you mean by this post before me or any other Libertarian can reply to this… ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/44 "2000-03-12T07:27:00Z")
Single Dad: > [@](#): > > You get a robust and functioning economic system. That is your consideration. _Taxation_ produces a 'robust and functioning economic system??? > [@](#): > > Calif, given that you claim you’re a Creationist I did? (I note you’re no longer citing scripture after I called you on your hypocrisy, however 🙂 My quote: > [@](#): > > Leftists take the money under the guise of helping the > underprivileged, whose condition was largely created by the leftists. Your response: > [@](#): > > Unless you can sucessfully dispute the ownership issue, once the money has been > collected, it is the people’s to spend as they will. Notice you didn’t refute the alleged deceit. Must be true. And, you’re quite willing to take the product of someone’s elses labor, again without compensation. I call this criminal. Single Dad: > [@](#): > > General Foods, Proctor & Gamble, Del Monte, etc. form an oligarchal cartel. Together > they have a virtual monopoly (accepted by libertarian theory). Whatever they as a > group decide you should pay for food, you pay. The fact that you would starve > without food does not abridge their right to demand what they will. Sounds like good old supply and demand to me-the basic fuel of the ‘robust economy’ you referred to above. Single Dad, the leftist experiment with redistribution of wealth has failed everywher e it’s been tried. Get over it. Go on with your life. ---
**Author:** ![Erratum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Erratum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erratum)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/45 "2000-03-12T07:59:00Z")
“_I’m arguing that “the economy” is an ownable thing because it has utility._” The economy is not ownable from a Libertarian perspective. Could you sell it to someone? “_they insist on a market where coercion or fraud is restricted by a government._” I think that you are right in a way, but you are phrasing the question “incorrectly”. By framing the question in terms of collective ownership, you immediately invoke the image of socialism. If you said that the government had a monopoly on fraud protection, and that the price it charged (in addition to taxation) was a relinquishment of some of the things that Libertarians regard as “rights”, then we would be framing the issue in terms of the marketplace, and Libertarians who are whining and complaining about the government infringing on their rights are morally equivalent to people whining and complaining that prices are too high. ---
**Author:** ![Gilligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Gilligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gilligan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/46 "2000-03-12T23:00:00Z")
> [@](#): > > You can’t just declare the right to participate in the economy free; otherwise I’m just as free to declare your house is free and insist that you cannot evict me from it without my consent. That is in fact exactly what a libertarian would declare. It is no different a declaration than this: “people in common have asserted ownership over the economy as a whole.” Why do they get to declare that ownership? There are two meanings of the word “free”: Meaning one: “Free” means without force; that is, of one’s own free will. In this sense, I am free to buy that hamburger; no one is forcing me to, or not allowing me to. Meaning two: “Free” means without price; that is, I don’t have to give up anything to do or get something. In this sense, that hamburger is not free if I have to pay for it. If you are using the first meaning when you say someone is free not to “use” the economy which is “owned” by “the people” (I put these words in quotes because others are debating whether their use is accurate here; it really doesn’t matter to me), then you are correct - the US is libertarian after all. But libertarians would insist that use of this economy must be free by the second meaning as well, for a society to be considered libertarian. But why should “use of the economy” be free, when hamburgers need not be? Because to a libertarian, the “right to use one’s own property” is the only right there is, and the excercise of this right is, by definition, a “use of the economy”. If one must pay in order to excercise a right, then it ceases to be a right; I think non-libertarians would agree. Non-libertarians deny that “right to use one’s own property” is fundamental; that is the difference between “us” and “them”. To say that a person could just move out, if he didn’t like the system, means that person must give up something (his property); in other words, pay a price, so not free by the second meaning. To say he could “live off his land” in Montana or even where he lives now, that would be free by the second meaning as well. But with an important disclaimer - that “freeness” is only temporary if the government (or the people) is allowed to impose a tax on his property itself. ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/47 "2000-03-12T23:10:00Z")
**CalifBoomer** > [@](#): > > _Taxation_ produces a 'robust and functioning economic system???\*\* > > No, the government produces it. Taxation is the method of payment for that utility. > > > [@](#): > > > > Notice you didn’t refute the alleged deceit. Must be true. > > I specifically did refute the “alleged deceit.” If I sell you a product, and you agree to pay, it is none of your business what I spend my profits on. There is no deceit taking place. > > > [@](#): > > > > And, you’re quite willing to take the product of someone’s elses labor, again without compensation. > > You’re just claiming the contrary to my point, not refuting it. This sort of non-argument is becoming tiresome. > > > [@](#): > > > > Sounds like good old supply and demand to me-the basic fuel of the ‘robust economy’ you referred to above. > > My point exactly. The government acts exactly as an accepted libertarian monopoly does. Supply and demand. Q.E.D. > > [query]Single Dad, the leftist experiment with redistribution of wealth has failed everywher e it’s been tried. _Every_ industrial democracy collects taxes and spends them for the benefit of the population as a whole. A matter of degree, not principle. **Erratum:** > [@](#): > > The economy is not ownable from a Libertarian perspective. Could you sell it to someone? The ability to sell is not a necessary condition of ownership. For instance, I own my own life, yet I may not sell it and thus make the buyer a slave owner. I also may legitimately purchase property under a covenant not to sell. > [@](#): > > By framing the question in terms of collective ownership, you immediately invoke the image of socialism. Collective ownership is a well-recognized principle in ordinary capitalism, mediated through the ownership of stock. However, you are exactly correct: I _am_ framing the taxation debate in terms of the marketplace, by claiming that the people, through the agency of their government are indeed legitimate players in that marketplace. > [@](#): > > … Libertarians who are whining and complaining about the government infringing on their rights are morally equivalent to people whining and complaining that prices are too high. Rah! I couldn’t have said it better myself! * * * He’s the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armor, shouting ‘All Gods are Bastards!’ ---
**Author:** ![techchick68](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@techchick68](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/techchick68)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/48 "2000-03-12T23:59:00Z")
Okay, so you don’t know what Libertarians are about **Singledad** Then I recommend that you read up on it before you cite things that aren’t true based on your OP. [http://www.libertarian.org](http://www.libertarian.org)[http://www.lp.org](http://www.lp.org) (the party’s official site) ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/49 "2000-03-13T00:18:00Z")
**techchick68:** If we’re going to just throw links around, [this one](http://www.britannica.com/) fully supports my position. 😉 Note: This post is a joke. I repeat: This post is only a joke. Had it been a real post, I would have made an actual point. The wink is a good giveaway as well. * * * He’s the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armor, shouting ‘All Gods are Bastards!’ ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/50 "2000-03-13T04:09:00Z")
Single Dad: > [@](#): > > No, the government produces it. The _government produces_ a robust economy??? This is such an inane statement (even from you)that I think you’re your just baiting me. _BUT_ on the off chance that you’re actually _serious_, that you really **believe** such an **obviously collectivist** notion, give me one, **just one** example of the government **producing anything**. Not one of your platitudes about ‘investing in education’ or some such nonsense that involves yet another socialist scheme for redistribution of wealth. Give me an example wherein the government has **actually produced** goods or services that were marketable, and how that activity produced a robust economy. > [@](#): > > If I sell you a product, and you agree to > pay, it is none of your business what I spend my profits on. This is a rational analogy? The government has _profits?_ Wrong. Private enterprise produces. Private enterprise has profits. Government only taxes and spends. > [@](#): > > You’re just claiming the contrary to my point, not refuting it. This sort of > non-argument is becoming tiresome. Sorry to tire you with the facts. ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/51 "2000-03-13T04:23:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Give me an example wherein the government has actually produced goods or services that were marketable, and how that activity produced a robust economy. Mass transit, bridges, highways, airports, harbor facilities, etc., etc., etc. No way could our economy flourish without them. Possibly the best historic example in US history would be NY State, where the government built the Erie Canal and within a decade or two transformed New York from about #3 or 4 to the economic superpower of the country. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/52 "2000-03-13T04:35:00Z")
Single Dad: > [@](#): > > There is no deceit taking > place. There most assuredly is. Thirty five years ago, leftist elements in the United States government began a transfer of wealth, called Lyndon Johnson’s ‘Great Society’. Since then, approximately \* FIVE TRILLION DOLLARS \* has been given in the form of welfare payments, food stamps, afdc, section 8 housing, etc., ad nauseum to those who refuse to become productive. It has proven to be a veritable gold mine for the power brokers of the left, because \*\*you get more of what you subsidize \*\*, ergo, it is a self sustaining scheme. The _deceit_ lies in the continuing exploitation of these now dependent people by the aforementioned power brokers, in whose interest it is _to keep them dependent_. Every new ploy for more transfer of wealth comes with promises to help those in need. As a result, an increasing number of people are filling the welfare rolls. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/53 "2000-03-13T04:40:00Z")
nebuli: > [@](#): > > Mass transit, bridges, highways, airports, harbor facilities, etc., etc., etc. > > ``` > No way could our economy flourish without them. > > ``` 1. What percentage of the federal budget is relegated to these expenditures? 2. Where does the rest of the money go? See my rant above for details. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/54 "2000-03-13T05:09:00Z")
CalifBoomer said > [@](#): > > Thirty five years ago, leftist elements in the United States government began a transfer of wealth, called Lyndon Johnson’s ‘Great Society’. > [@](#): > > Every new ploy for more transfer of wealth comes with promises to help those in need. As a result, an **increasing** number of people are filling the welfare rolls. Gee! That’s not what [http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/news/stats/6097rf.htm](http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/news/stats/6097rf.htm) indicates. If I read it right, it would indicate that some of the biggest increases to welfare rolls occurred under that famous leftist Richard Nixon. And starting in 1996, the welfare rolls are DECREASING. And, yes, I know that the cuts in welfare rolls are the results of conservatives in congress, not Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/55 "2000-03-13T15:23:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Every new ploy for more transfer of wealth comes with promises to help those in need. As a result, an increasing number of people are filling the welfare rolls. Why is that? samclem already addressed the reduction in the welfare rolls, but it should be pointed out that _a the bulk of what the current administration has done to help those in need has been directed at the working poor_, by means such as increasing the Earned Income Credit. What does this sort of thing do? It lifts the tax burden on people who are making barely enough to get by, and otherwise makes the life of the working poor more tenable. So it creates incentives to go to work. But once they’re working, a bigger paycheck is better than a small paycheck; the Clinton-era incentives haven’t undone that. So they’ve got the normal incentives we all have to make more money, rather than less, in their job. So the current program gives people incentives to work, then the normal logistics of living take over, giving them incentives to earn more. To me, that seems like the way it ought to work. What’s the gripe? * * * Enough of voting for the _lesser_ of evils - vote Cthulhu 2000! ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_North](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Peter\_North](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_North)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/56 "2000-03-13T16:42:00Z")
SingleDad: > [@](#): > > My assertion is that taxes (which is the main point that libertarians whine about) are justified by the basic premises of libertarianism. Either that or the basic premises of libertarianism are contradictory. Taxes are a necessary evil, I don’t dispute that. But, what bothers me is the way they (income taxes) are collected. That’s what I whine about. * * * Up the Irons! ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/57 "2000-03-13T16:49:00Z")
How would you improve tax collection, Peter? ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/58 "2000-03-13T17:54:00Z")
Oh, Peter, I so definitely agree. Having been screwed over by the California Franchise Tax Board and the IRS, I’m very unhappy with the methodology they use to compute and calculate taxes. But that’s just an error, not a refutation of the _fundamental_ right of the people to collect taxes through their government, which is the theme of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_North](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Peter\_North](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_North)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/59 "2000-03-13T19:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Gaudere: > **How would you improve tax collection, Peter?** How about something a little less intrusive? It seems funny to me, that we have to calculate the tax we owe, and if the IRS questions any figures, we have to prove that we owe said tax. It’s inquisitorial in nature, and I don’t believe there is any way for an income tax to not be. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768/60 "2000-03-13T19:26:00Z")
Well, the IRS _could_ calculate it for us, but they’d have to raise our taxes to cover the additional cost… 😉 Personally, I prefer doing my own taxes, because it’s my money and I like to see the method used to calculate the taxes (and various options possible) rather than just be served with a bill at the end of the year. Not to mention there are personal choices you can make to reduce your tax bill, like itemizing, that the IRS can hardly do for you. > [@](#): > > if the IRS questions any figures, we have to prove that we owe said tax. Really? I can see that we would have to provide all the material we used to figure the tax, but I thought the burden of proof was still on the IRS. If they are going to question any tax returns at all–which I think they’ll have to, to avoid fraud–they do need your tax information, so I don’t see how we can avoid that degree of inquisition. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-is-already-a-libertarian-society/17768.md?page=4)