# The US job market is a big fat joke **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570 "2019-03-26T17:18:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/81 "2019-03-29T14:55:10Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What happened after that? Did you eventually get a better engineering job? My job while going to school was in IT so I eventually started applying for IT jobs and got one that paid quite a bit more than the traffic “engineering” job. I still look back on those early decisions and wonder if I chose correctly. I’ve had a good career (I’m in management now) but I still think I would’ve enjoyed getting my PE license and working in design and project management. I do interact with civil and mechanical engineers weekly since I now also do operational work on top of IT so my schooling is helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/82 "2019-03-29T14:58:29Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > My job while going to school was in IT so I eventually started applying for IT jobs and got one that paid quite a bit more than the traffic “engineering” job. I still look back on those early decisions and wonder if I chose correctly. I’ve had a good career (I’m in management now) but I still think I would’ve enjoyed getting my PE license and working in design and project management. I do interact with civil and mechanical engineers weekly since I now also do operational work on top of IT so my schooling is helpful. That’s great! But it does seem to me that you graduated school, got a low-level job, and then worked your way up to management. Isn’t that how it’s supposed to work? ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/83 "2019-03-29T15:31:48Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s great! > > But it does seem to me that you graduated school, got a low-level job, and then worked your way up to management. > > Isn’t that how it’s supposed to work? It is. But I felt similar to the OP back in the early 90’s. I was frustrated and felt it would be impossible to ever get a “good” job. It felt to me like everyone wanted the masters along with experience. You just have to set your bar a lot lower than you expected. And now that I’m the hiring end of things, we don’t ask for all the things he is mentioning for our entry level IT tech positions (we don’t require a college degree for example). We have a dearth of applicants. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/84 "2019-03-29T15:44:50Z")
It’s going to get worse. Artificial Intelligence and robots are taking over a hell of a lot. I wouldn’t have the permanent job I have now, if I hadn’t worked for this company for twelve years before I got laid off for six years. And now, four years later, they are bringing in software which will automatically download most of what I do now. At my last review, my boss told me that this software will do ninety percent of my job now, so I will have plenty of time to do the ten percent of the job I will have left. He acted like this was the best news ever. All I can think of is ten percent of my workload is not going to cover that missing ninety percent. Plus now, I am putting in much needed overtime hours in order to cover my rent. If the overtime goes, I don’t know how I will be able to both pay my rent and have food and medicine. I’m fucking scared of the future. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/85 "2019-03-29T15:56:19Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > And now that I’m the hiring end of things, we don’t ask for all the things he is mentioning for our entry level IT tech positions (we don’t require a college degree for example). We have a dearth of applicants. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > It’s going to get worse. Artificial Intelligence and robots are taking over a hell of a lot. Again, these two posts seem to contradict. As stated, \*\*wguy123 \*\*has a dearth of applicants for entry-level IT positions, but somehow the job market is getting worse? I must be missing something. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/86 "2019-03-29T16:20:32Z")
> [@scarface54345](#): > > I wish I was born 60 years ago … [Why set your aspiration so low?](https://youtu.be/6xcwt9mSbYE?t=176) ---
**Author:** ![txjim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@txjim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txjim)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/87 "2019-03-29T17:04:25Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I’m inclined to agree with the OP. Look, I have an MBA and a degree in engineering from two top schools. A PMP project management certification as well as other certs. I have 20 years of experience working for some of the top companies in their field (including Silicon Valley and Wall Street). I have extensive programming and data science experience. I’m conventionally handsome. I’m charming and outgoing enough that people either assume I’m in sales or should be. I’m good at writing, presenting and public speaking. I have a vast network of friends and former colleagues who work at top companies and have shown themselves inclined to help out. I live in a major metropolitan area. > > And I’ve still been looking for a job for six months with no luck. > > Forget 60 years ago. There just seems to be something happening these days where job hunting is a lot more terrible than it was even 5 years ago. I don’t think it matters what level you are looking at. Companies want to spend forever picking through dozens of candidates just to find what they think is some sort of “super star”. > > Meanwhile, when I used to go into these companies as a consultant, the people actually working there seemed like morons. Like how did this idiot from second rate school ever get their job and how did they manage to coast there for 15 years, working their way up to VP of doing nothing? > > Yeah, I hear that’s going to be a growth business in the coming decades. Odd hearing you say that because, in my area at least, we have trouble hiring engineers due to the overwhelming demand. I won’t discount age discrimination because I know its a real thing even in a booming market but perhaps something else is going on here. Just a wild guess, but referring to VPs as idiots from second rate schools may be part of the puzzle. TXjim, a manager at an aerospace company from a second-rate school. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/88 "2019-03-29T17:30:40Z")
> [@txjim](#): > > TXjim, a manager at an aerospace company from a second-rate school. I have a degree from a second-rate state school and I’m another idiot with a job. Go figure. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/89 "2019-03-29T18:22:42Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > But all the grads think that’s what they should get because they heard that’s what someone else got. And that’s how they think people should be paid, like all their friends, not on their value as an employee, because that would be difficult and they just graduated from school which was really difficult and they only did it to make a lot of money not to work hard. > > junnerstan now? Yes. I understand. My point was that a starting salary like that is only available to a few people with specific skills, which makes it an unrealistic expectation for most people. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/90 "2019-03-29T18:37:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, they’re definitely full-time employees, with benefits, in the exact same way I am in South Africa (contract workers are not unknown here, we have at least 2 on staff right now). But they have paperwork that says what they’re paid & what their benefits are. This might be because even though the current company is American-based and in origin, the _umbrella_ corporation is neither, and _very_ European. There could be some confusion about the term “contract” going on here. I mean, everywhere I’ve ever worked, there’s always been some piece of paper saying I’m working here for X amount per year, and that I’m starting at Y job title, etc… And there’s almost always some document concerning the benefits _as they currently stand._ But none are contracts; at best, they’re the company documenting, and giving you a copy of what you agreed to when you agreed to work for them. There’s no contractual language, etc… and there’s always some acknowledgement that everything may change at the company’s whim. Contract work here in the US is more of a legal contract- you do X job at Y pay for a term of Z months type stuff. You’re not considered “employed” by the company- you’re essentially a vendor selling your labor. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/91 "2019-03-29T19:08:06Z")
I was forced to get a new job 6 years ago. I didn’t have any problems. Of course I did have a lot of experience. It’s not exactly a great job either, but at least it pays the bills. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/92 "2019-03-29T19:22:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Again, these two posts seem to contradict. As stated, \*\*wguy123 \*\*has a dearth of applicants for entry-level IT positions, but somehow the job market is getting worse? > > I must be missing something. IT is not my field. The artificial intelligence refers to software that is replacing what I do in accounts payable. For now, I enter information from invoices into our payment system. New software has the ability to read invoices through a scanner from multiple locations, and download that information into our payment system. As I understand it, all that’s left for me to do is approve the information, and review and reconcile statements. That will not fill forty hours a week. I do not have the skills to design software. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/93 "2019-03-29T19:23:47Z")
> [@bump](#): > > There could be some confusion about the term “contract” going on here. I mean, everywhere I’ve ever worked, there’s always been some piece of paper saying I’m working here for X amount per year, and that I’m starting at Y job title, etc… And there’s almost always some document concerning the benefits _as they currently stand._ > > But none are contracts; at best, they’re the company documenting, and giving you a copy of what you agreed to when you agreed to work for them. There’s no contractual language, etc… and there’s always some acknowledgement that everything may change at the company’s whim. Exactly. In the case of my son, what solidified the deal was the written offer of employment provided by the company he will be starting with. It details his job title, start date, salary, work location, and amount of annual paid time off (PTO). It includes a disclaimer at the bottom noting that all employees are employed at the will of the Firm (i.e. [at-will employment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment)\*). It’s signed by an officer of the company, but is certainly not a contract. My son accepted it by email. (Incidentally, another company gave him a written offer that included all of the above info in an email, not even a signed letter. I personally thought this was a bit _too_ informal, but maybe I’m stuck in the past.) And that is as good as it gets for most employees in the U.S. After accepting that written offer by email, my son subsequently told all of the other employers who were interested in him that he had decided to accept another job offer. Because of the whole “at-will employment” policy, the company could always rescind the offer, but this is not typically done, and doing anything like this would adversely affect a company’s reputation. \*See link above. “At-will employment” means an employee can be "can be dismissed by an employer for any reason (that is, without having to establish “just cause” for termination), and without warning, as long as the reason is not illegal (e.g. firing because of the employee’s race or religion). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/94 "2019-03-29T21:15:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So everyone’s just employed on a handshake? How do you prove employment to e.g. banks? Most recent paystub or most recent two paystubs. When self-employed a stack of cash and a month’s records of my inbound revenue. I’ll also mention that when an employer tried to screw me over with not paying me the court system accepted my multi-month notes on days/hours worked along with paystubs and two bounced checks as proof that I was employed and did work and awarded me _seven times_ what I was originally owed as penalty to the (now former) employer. So while we don’t do it the way other parts of the world do workers do have the ability to prove employed and some legal recourse in the event of problems. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/95 "2019-03-29T21:18:10Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Yes. I understand. My point was that a starting salary like that is only available to a few people with specific skills, which makes it an unrealistic expectation for most people. Yeah, I got that, I’m sure you understood before, I just fell into character there. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/96 "2019-03-29T22:01:41Z")
> [@scarface54345](#): > > I am a Millennial (unfortunately). I wish I was born 60 years ago so that I could be a baby boomer because the job market actually made sense back in the day. You didn’t have to be perfect to land a job. Nowadays, you need to have an advanced degree, 10 years of experience, long list of references, a perfect smile, posture, and handshake at the interview, etc etc and other ridiculous shit to actually get the job…all for some shitty minimum wage job. Okay so maybe that doesn’t apply to everyone, but it does to me. So many morons and imbeciles landing jobs that I didn’t. Darn all of those morons and imbeciles that have an advanced degree, 10 years of experience, a long list of references, a perfect smile, posture, and handshake! ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2019, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/97 "2019-03-29T22:49:11Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Exactly. In the case of my son, what solidified the deal was the written offer of employment provided by the company he will be starting with. It details his job title, start date, salary, work location, and amount of annual paid time off (PTO). It includes a disclaimer at the bottom noting that all employees are employed at the will of the Firm (i.e. [at-will employment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment)\*). It’s signed by an officer of the company, but is certainly not a contract. My son accepted it by email. There is some confusion about what’s meant by “contract”, but I think it’s you guys who are confused. 🙂 The above is definitely a legal contract. It contains an offer of work to be done, compensation for it, and both the company officer and your son agreed to it in writing. Offer, Consideration, Acceptance, Meeting of the minds. [That’s what a contract is](http://jec.unm.edu/education/online-training/contract-law-tutorial/contract-fundamentals-part-2)! The contract in question lasts as long as both parties want it to last, which is the “at-will” part. It’s also possible to have an employment contract that can’t be unilaterally broken by the employer, that requires them to do steps X, Y, and Z to terminate the contract. Such an agreement might be a better deal for employees, but it’s not _more_ of a contract than an agreement that doesn’t require those steps. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/98 "2019-03-30T01:33:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, they’re definitely full-time employees, with benefits, in the exact same way I am in South Africa (contract workers are not unknown here, we have at least 2 on staff right now). But they have paperwork that says what they’re paid & what their benefits are. This might be because even though the current company is American-based and in origin, the _umbrella_ corporation is neither, and _very_ European. When I was hired on at that particular company (and this is true for at least three other companies I worked for - I’d have to check on the others) I was sent a formal offer of employment. That letter included my job title, initial salary, start date, a schedule of performance/salary reviews, a note that my employment would terminate with two weeks notice by either party (the “at will” thing) and a very brief job description. That formal letter was only a single page. The other details - including vacation, insurance, and other benefits - were covered in the employee manual, which was clearly stated to be an official part of the company’s terms of employment. Each edition of the handbook superseded all previous editions. If I didn’t like terms in the handbook I could either try to negotiate an individual deal, or exercise my right to leave with two weeks notice. And after each salary/performance review I was given a letter that, among other things, set out my salary until the next review. So, yes, I had plenty of paperwork ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/99 "2019-03-30T02:02:14Z")
> [@txjim](#): > > Odd hearing you say that because, in my area at least, we have trouble hiring engineers due to the overwhelming demand. I won’t discount age discrimination because I know its a real thing even in a booming market but perhaps something else is going on here. > > TXjim, a manager at an aerospace company from a second-rate school. I’m not an engineer. I have a BS in civil engineering, but switch careers into technology and business consulting. What I sort of feel like is that you need to be of one of two types of people: 1. Those who have the hot skills that companies need to get work done (these days, stuff like R, Python, AI/Machine Learning, Full stack engineer data science shit) 2. A network of senior leadership who can just invent some bullshit job for you because you’re such a great person. > [@txjim](#): > > Just a wild guess, but referring to VPs as idiots from second rate schools may be part of the puzzle. Are you under the impression that this is something I would tell an interviewer? Although, FWIW, I think there is a cultural difference between people who graduate from nth tier schools and “work” their way to Senior VP by taking whatever job they land and sticking around for 20 years vs people who graduate from top tier schools and “job hop” every 1-4 years between “prestige” companies like McKinsey, Goldman Sachs, Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc. I feel like I’m kind of in the middle of the two. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2019, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570/100 "2019-03-30T02:07:25Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > IT is not my field. The artificial intelligence refers to software that is replacing what I do in accounts payable. For now, I enter information from invoices into our payment system. New software has the ability to read invoices through a scanner from multiple locations, and download that information into our payment system. As I understand it, all that’s left for me to do is approve the information, and review and reconcile statements. That will not fill forty hours a week. I do not have the skills to design software. No offense, but it seems like you just do basic data entry. What have you done to make your job experience more attractive to employers? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-job-market-is-a-big-fat-joke/831570.md?page=6)