# The US oversteps its bounds, or: The Poor Man! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 15, 2002, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395 "2002-10-15T20:50:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/41 "2002-10-20T20:02:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LaurAnge \* > \*\*Small update: > > It has been confirmed as much as it can be that he has indeed been deported to Syria. The last article I read said that he had to have been either conscripted or put in jail. > > If he had been conscripted, he would have had the freedom to contact his family. Therefore, they’re assuming he’s in jail. > > \*\* Well, I’d hate to make his family feel worse about the whole thing than I’m sure they already do, but “conscription” is a term that can have different meanings in different places. Americans, and probably Canadians, generally think of conscription as an administrative/bureaucratic process, in which one is notified in advance and has opportunity to contest the decision, etc. I don’t know anything about Syria specifically, but in the Central American context, it frequently meant being rounded up by a military unit, thrown onto a truck, and not being able to contact anyone for months or year, if at all, if you lived to tell about it. I hope that’s not the case here, but whether it’s been jail or conscription, I’m not so optimistic about this poor guy’s family seeing him anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/42 "2002-10-20T20:07:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LaurAnge \* > \*\*Small update: > > It has been confirmed as much as it can be that he has indeed been deported to Syria. The last article I read said that he had to have been either conscripted or put in jail. > > If he had been conscripted, he would have had the freedom to contact his family. Therefore, they’re assuming he’s in jail. > > \*\* Well, I’d hate to make his family feel worse about the whole thing than I’m sure they already do, but “conscription” is a term that can have different meanings in different places. Americans, and probably Canadians, generally think of conscription as an administrative/bureaucratic process, in which one is notified in advance and has opportunity to contest the decision, etc. I don’t know anything about Syria specifically, but in the Central American context, it frequently meant being rounded up by a military unit, thrown onto a truck, and not being able to contact anyone for months or year, if at all, if you lived to tell about it. I hope that’s not the case here, but whether it’s been jail or conscription, I’m not so optimistic about this poor guy’s family seeing him anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/43 "2002-10-20T20:10:31Z")
Bottom line? The US has “disappeared” a Canadian. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/44 "2002-10-20T22:11:15Z")
I’d have thought so, **Eva** , but it was his Tunisian wife and his brother (who I can only assume also grew up in Syria with him) who claimed that if he’d been conscripted he could have contacted them. ---
**Author:** ![tisiphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tisiphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tisiphone)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/45 "2002-10-23T18:10:56Z")
Mr. Arar has now [been found](http://ca.news.yahoo.com/021021/6/pq9s.html). There is, as of yet, no mention of whether he will be forced to complete the Syrian military service, whether he will be allowed by Syria to return home at all, or, of course, any sort of compensation for being treated so shabbily, without legitimate proof. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2002, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/46 "2002-10-30T23:28:38Z")
[Link.](http://www.voyage.gc.ca/destinations/report_e.asp?country=United+States) [From the Globe and Mail:](http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/front/RTGAM/20021030/wcust1030/Front/homeBN/breakingnews) > [@](#): > > A travel advisory issued by the Department of Foreign Affairs on Tuesday about the new law also warned that Canadians born in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or Yemen “could also attract special attention from American immigration and security authorities.” > > The Department of Foreign Affairs says Canadian citizens who were born in the countries named by the United States should carefully consider whether they “should attempt to enter the United States for any reason, including transit to or from third countries.” And why the hell shouldn’t they?? United States immigration officials have already _disappeared_ a _Canadian citizen._ He’s finally been found, mercifully, but I still think it’s completely unconscionable the complete lack of respect the American governments are showing for Canadian (or French or British or any other country’s) citizenship. > [@](#): > > The U.S. alleges he has links to al-Qaeda. > > “We have no evidence to support the American claim,” Mr. Doiron said. > > The federal government is also waiting for an answer from the United States on why they deported Mr. Arar to Syria rather than to Canada in the first place, Mr. Doiron said. Yet more evidence that certain branches of that state’s government feel that they can do whatever they want, with no regards for the rights or safety of any other country’s citizenship. It makes me furious. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/47 "2002-10-31T00:58:41Z")
Found, yes. Handed back from Syria? **NO**. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/48 "2002-10-31T04:11:17Z")
FUCK THIS shit. Fuck the Bush Administration. Fuck them hard and extremely painfully. ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/49 "2002-10-31T12:40:16Z")
Whenever I hear about these things, I can totally imagine them happening to someone in my family. I’m headed back to the States with my US passport, birthplace: Tehran, Iran. It always makes me bloody nervous and panicked to think they’ll interrogate me when I’m travelling with my toddler and she’ll see me carted off in handcuffs. Horrifying. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/50 "2002-10-31T13:21:55Z")
To follow up on Matt’s post, here is what our government has to say about the [matter](http://cbc.ca/stories/2002/10/30/graham021030): > [@](#): > > For now, Ottawa is advising Canadian citizens born in Iran, Iraq, > Libya, Syria or Sudan to avoid travelling to the United States. The > advisory says anyone born in those five countries will be > fingerprinted and photographed by American authorities. > > ``` > Ottawa also cautioned individuals > born in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or > Yemen that they could attract > special attention at the U.S. > border. > > ``` > [@](#): > > ``` > [Foreign Affairs Minister] Bill Graham says he has complained > to U.S. Secretary of State Colin > Powell that such racial targeting > is inappropriate. > > ``` > [@](#): > > ``` > Citizenship Minister Denis Coderre, says the new policy creates > two classes of Canadians. > > "We should send a clear message that a Canadian citizen is a > Canadian citizen, and we're not doing any racial profiling. We > should be respectful of that even from our American friends," he > said. > > ``` > [@](#): > > ``` > Liberal MP Sarkis Assadourian, a Canadian born in Syria, calls > the U.S. policy "frightening." > > "If I want to go the States can you imagine me, as a member of > Parliament, fingerprinted and photographed as a common > criminal? Just because I was born in Syria why should I be a > second-class citizen based on my birthplace?" > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/51 "2002-10-31T14:18:38Z")
This is an absolute terrible story. The poor guy. How stupid to do this to a citizen of a country that has shown nothing but support. Short sighted mindless bureaucrats are to blame. Fucking idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/52 "2002-11-01T01:17:20Z")
Just saw a clip from today’s House of Commons. Minister of Foreign Affairs Bill Graham said the USA is backing off on racial profiling Canadians who were born in the mid-east. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/53 "2002-11-01T12:45:23Z")
Yes, heard on the news that Ambassador Cellucci said the same thing. No details yet, though, until which I’m going to remain rather skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/54 "2002-11-03T09:23:14Z")
And while we’re at it, the Governor-General’s Award- and Giller Prize-winning author Rohinton Mistry has cancelled a book tour due to _drumroll!_ immigration service discrimination against people of colour. From [CBC.ca](http://cbc.ca/stories/2002/11/02/mistry021102): > [@](#): > > One of Canada’s most celebrated authors, Rohinton Mistry, has cancelled his U.S. book tour, saying he’s fed up with the way he is treated at American airports. … > > He was facing “unbearable humiliation” because of racial profiling, according to a representative of his U.S. publisher, Alfred A. Knopf. … > > The Indian-born Mistry, however, is not from one of the targeted countries, nor is he Muslim. … > > The memo said that as a person of colour, Mistry was stopped repeatedly and rudely at U.S. airports on his tour. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/55 "2002-11-03T15:10:34Z")
Here is the Globe’s article: [http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/front/RTGAM/20021103/wxmist1102/Front/homeBN/breakingnews](http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/front/RTGAM/20021103/wxmist1102/Front/homeBN/breakingnews) I don’t know how long it will stay at that address. That’s pretty sad, when state promoted racism drives away major authors. Talk about being insular. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/56 "2002-11-03T15:46:21Z")
And from this [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49346-2002Oct31.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49346-2002Oct31.html) in the Washington Post, it looks like the USA is trying to backpedal on the recent assurance they gave. They just don’t seem to grasp that racial profiling is racism. Looks like the lessons learned from WWII have been forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2002, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/57 "2002-11-03T15:49:54Z")
The USA has such potential to be a great nation. It’s a real pity to see a handful of terrorists drag the USA down to their level. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/58 "2002-11-04T06:50:33Z")
And moving right along: > [@](#): > > “We … need lectures from some people, not from Soviet Canuckistan.” > > Conservative U.S. commentator Pat Buchanan offers his opinion on his television show Thursday, calling Canada a “complete haven” for international terrorists. ([link](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlets.PhotoGalleryHTMLTemplate?tf=/PhotoGallery/Styles/generic.html&cf=PhotoGallery/config&configFileLoc=PhotoGallery/PhotoGallery.prop&slug=vnov3&curr=1&go=prev&style=g8summit_photo_gallery.prop)) Well, I could respond fully, but I think I’ll just say: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/59 "2002-11-04T06:58:35Z")
And moving right along: > [@](#): > > “We … need lectures from some people, not from Soviet Canuckistan.” > > Conservative U.S. commentator Pat Buchanan offers his opinion on his television show Thursday, calling Canada a “complete haven” for international terrorists. ([link](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlets.PhotoGalleryHTMLTemplate?tf=/PhotoGallery/Styles/generic.html&cf=PhotoGallery/config&configFileLoc=PhotoGallery/PhotoGallery.prop&slug=vnov3&curr=1&go=prev&style=g8summit_photo_gallery.prop)) Well, I could respond fully, but I think I’ll just say: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2002, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395/60 "2002-11-04T08:43:35Z")
Guinastasia, for someone who claims to be a history major (and a graduate, IIRC), you exhibit a remarkable lack of knowledge about the historical issues of which you speak. When called on it, you generally always say something like “duh, excuse me”, and then go on to castigate the person you are disagreeing with, even if they show much more knowledge about the historical issue than you, especially if they are an “evil Republican”. For ex. in this very thread: Quoth Guin-" Fuck the Bush Administration. Fuck them hard and extremely painfully." You just had to throw that in, because you got burned on something you screwed up on, as usual. Maybe you should get your head out of your ass and learn some history, because apparently you didn’t learn shit in college, except that everything your leftist prof said about Central America is NOT TO BE QUESTIONED! And now let everybody sing “Well Guin is a respected poster, fuck you Klaatu, you don’t know shit, and fuck off!” Fine, be that as it may, but I don’t continually post bullshit masquerading as fact, and then shrug it off, using it as a springboard for political hyperbole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-oversteps-its-bounds-or-the-poor-man/132395.md?page=4)