# The US should leave the UN **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2017, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514 "2017-01-07T06:41:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/41 "2017-01-08T19:19:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The UN is responsible for the force that maintains the cease-fire in Korea. If the US drops out, are they going to be able to keep the DMZ secure without us? It is also responsible for regulating international postal service, which is pretty useful, for instance. The UN is involved in a lot of things that don’t make headlines. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/42 "2017-01-09T00:10:18Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > The US invented the UNO, or at least, it was driven through by Roosevelt in order to ensure that there was a formalised way for every state to have some input to the brute realities of great power politics in a world dominated by the USA and the USSR, and some common definition of how to achieve and maintain peace. US and the UK actually. It was from Roosevelt and Churchill’s discussions that the plan of reviving a sort of League of Nations evolved. The creation of permanent members of the Security Council with a veto over any UN actions kept the organization firmly under the control of the major powers. It’s a talking-shop, although sometimes a very expensive one. No real harm in it as it’s quite toothless unless the 5 permanent members agree on something and how often does that happen? Keeping the HQ in New York is also sensible in that it’s another way of maintaining US control. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/43 "2017-01-09T03:26:54Z")
US Out of UN Was the battle cry of the John Birch Society in my youth. I wish to thank the OP for reminding me why I got the Hell out of the Midwest. And: believe it or not, there are actually a few intelligent people in the world who have a very negative view of Israel. In the 60’s the TV networks all considered “Palestinian” and “Terrorist” to be equivalent terms. It should surprise absolutely nobody that the Jews most eager to take what little land the Palestinians were allowed and American Jews who moved to Israel for the sole purpose of destroying any chance for peace. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/44 "2017-01-09T03:46:40Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > When I was growing up there seemed to be two views on the UN. In the one in my school books, the UN was a celebration of humanity’s wonderful diversity in which people from all nations, many clad in their native garb, stood around and smiled a lot. There wasn’t much detailed description of what the representatives actually _did_, but it all looked very happy and multi-racial. This was re-enforced by the “model UNs” that many children have gone through. Jeez, you’re right. Stupid hippie librulz invented the UN to push, with the aid of the over-paid teachers, (damn their Union) Kwanza and imported matryoshka dolls on unsuspecting, innocent American™ youth. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/45 "2017-01-09T05:33:55Z")
If we want to forget the lessons of WW I and WW II then yes, let’s get out of the UN. Maybe we should go back to a policy of appeasement, too; with Russia perhaps? I suppose this question is being asked at this moment largely because the OP disagrees with the UN on the latest pronouncements against Israeli settlements. I, on the other hand, very much agreed with the statements and wish (in this case) that the UN (with the US) could do more. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/46 "2017-01-09T13:54:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Compare the seventy-two years we’ve had the UN (1945-2017) with the last seventy-two years before we had the UN (1873-1945). The world seems a lot better off in the UN era than it was in the pre-UN era. > > And it’s not like the world became inherently better. We’ve had the Cold War, the breakup of European colonial empires, the rise of terrorism, nuclear proliferation, the fall of communism, and various national rivalries. But we’ve managed to generally maintain the peace - or at least we’ve managed to avoid any general wars. I suspect the reason we haven’t had WWIII is more because of nuclear bombs than the UN. The UN doesn’t have real power unless the Western nations decide they should. Their peacekeepers mostly [look the other way when civilians are threatened](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-un-peacekeepers-civilians-idUSBREA4F0M220140516) while the diplomats [bribe each other](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-un-corruption-exclusive-idUSKCN0X00VD). The fact that the world needs an organization like the UN means that the UN isn’t going to work very well. Thus it lurches between worthwhile humanitarian organization, and the world’s most expensive comedy club. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/47 "2017-01-09T14:03:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I suspect the reason we haven’t had WWIII is more because of nuclear bombs than the UN. > > The UN doesn’t have real power unless the Western nations decide they should. > Their peacekeepers mostly [look the other way when civilians are threatened](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-un-peacekeepers-civilians-idUSBREA4F0M220140516) while the diplomats [bribe each other](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-un-corruption-exclusive-idUSKCN0X00VD). > > The fact that the world needs an organization like the UN means that the UN isn’t going to work very well. Thus it lurches between worthwhile humanitarian organization, and the world’s most expensive comedy club. > > Regards, > Shodan There’s plenty of reasonable criticism, but do you think the world (and/or the US) would be better off without the UN? I think it’s only a tiny portion of the US budget, so I’d be awfully hesitant to risk losing an organization that _may_ have prevented a lot of major conflicts and suffering when the benefit seems so small. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/48 "2017-01-09T15:33:56Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > On the first point, there have been [an enormous number](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine) of anti-Israel resolutions over the years, none of which have achieved to long-term peace, obviously. Israel is the most democratic country in the Middle East, with the best human rights record, a free press, and other signs of human well being. Watching the Arab countries constantly pile on for condemnations of Israel gives the vibe of a classroom full of dumb jocks tormenting the one kid who actually does his homework. At the same time, the UN does nothing serious against most of the world’s worst human rights abusers. [The fact that Saudi Arabia is on the Human Rights Council](https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/06/29/suspend-saudi-arabia-un-human-rights-council) proves that the situation is hopeless and the UN will not get focused on tackling real human rights abuses anytime soon. This is nothing new. In the 90’s, the UN was notorious for its total failures in Rwanda and Bosnia. It’s a lengthy history of failure after failure. You might be amazed to learn that there is more to foreign policy than being Israel’s cheerleader. As others have noted, the world has seen less warfare since the UN was formed than before. Had the US not followed the isolationist path after WW I and had joined the League of Nations, who knows, perhaps WW II and its aftermath could have been avoided. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/49 "2017-01-09T15:40:49Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You might be amazed to learn that there is more to foreign policy than being Israel’s cheerleader. As others have noted, the world has seen less warfare since the UN was formed than before. Had the US not followed the isolationist path after WW I and had joined the League of Nations, who knows, perhaps WW II and its aftermath could have been avoided. Not true. The world was more peaceful 1844-1914 than 1945-2016. As Shodan noted, it was nukes that averted WWIII, not the UN. And they had to give the Soviets three votes to join. How was that just? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/50 "2017-01-09T16:21:47Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > If we want to forget the lessons of WW I and WW II then yes, let’s get out of the UN. Maybe we should go back to a policy of appeasement, too; with Russia perhaps? > > I suppose this question is being asked at this moment largely because the OP disagrees with the UN on the latest pronouncements against Israeli settlements. I, on the other hand, very much agreed with the statements and wish (in this case) that the UN (with the US) could do more. The OP’s position on the UN’s unfairness towards Israel is perfectly justified. Even if you accept that Israel’s settlement programi n the West Bank is unethical and wrong - and I agree it is - it is literally not one of the one thousand worst human rights problems in the world today. If the UN passed a resolution condemning a human rights violation by a member state every single working day of the year, and did so in order of the very worst one and worked their way down, they would NEVER get to Israeli settlements. The reason they keep passing the resolutions is simple; Israel is mostly populated by Jews, and the Muslim countries, and lots of people in other countries, hate Jews. I challenge anyone to come up with an explanation based on morals and ethics as to why Israel is constantly ripped over settlements but Saudi Arabia is never condemned for being a criminally evil state. You can’t. Does this mean the US should abandon the UN? I don’t see how that would help; it’s morally equivalent to the whiners who say they’ll move to Canada every time their Presidential candidate loses. It’s not going to get better if your voice is no longer there. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/51 "2017-01-09T16:36:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The OP’s position on the UN’s unfairness towards Israel is perfectly justified. Even if you accept that Israel’s settlement programi n the West Bank is unethical and wrong - and I agree it is - it is literally not one of the one thousand worst human rights problems in the world today. If the UN passed a resolution condemning a human rights violation by a member state every single working day of the year, and did so in order of the very worst one and worked their way down, they would NEVER get to Israeli settlements. > > The reason they keep passing the resolutions is simple; Israel is mostly populated by Jews, and the Muslim countries, and lots of people in other countries, hate Jews. I challenge anyone to come up with an explanation based on morals and ethics as to why Israel is constantly ripped over settlements but Saudi Arabia is never condemned for being a criminally evil state. You can’t. Dude, are you fucking kidding me Saudi Arabia [gets condemned all the time](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-rights-un-saudi-yemen-idUSKCN0YO2RK) by the UN. For example,[here](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-stoning-un-children-united-nations-a7349861.html). And countries voted against Israel because they are muslim/and or hate Jews? The latest UNSC resolution was passed 14-0-1 (US abstained). The current membership is [as such](http://www.un.org/en/sc/members/). You think China hates Jews? France? Italy, Bolivia, Japan, Sweden, Uruguay, The Ukraine all are muslim/ or they hate Jews? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/52 "2017-01-09T16:43:32Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You might be amazed to learn that there is more to foreign policy than being Israel’s cheerleader. As others have noted, the world has seen less warfare since the UN was formed than before. Had the US not followed the isolationist path after WW I and had joined the League of Nations, who knows, perhaps WW II and its aftermath could have been avoided. Because Stalin and Hitler would rethink their invasion of Poland, if the country with the 17th largest military were a member of the League of Nations? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/53 "2017-01-09T17:01:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The OP’s position on the UN’s unfairness towards Israel is perfectly justified. Even if you accept that Israel’s settlement programi n the West Bank is unethical and wrong - and I agree it is - it is literally not one of the one thousand worst human rights problems in the world today. If the UN passed a resolution condemning a human rights violation by a member state every single working day of the year, and did so in order of the very worst one and worked their way down, they would NEVER get to Israeli settlements. Go ahead, name the thousand that are worse. > [@](#): > > The reason they keep passing the resolutions is simple; Israel is mostly populated by Jews, and the Muslim countries, and lots of people in other countries, hate Jews. No, that’s not it. > [@](#): > > I challenge anyone to come up with an explanation based on morals and ethics as to why Israel is constantly ripped over settlements but Saudi Arabia is never condemned for being a criminally evil state. You can’t. As **AK84** pointed out, your premise is false. Furthermore, the Israeli occupation is an international issue, as the occupied territories are not part of Israel. The UN is an international organization, devoted primarily to international problems, as opposed to purely intranational ones. In addition to that, the UN has been elbow-deep in the Israeli mess from the very beginning, with the 1947 Partition Plan. It’s their baby, they have to raise it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/54 "2017-01-09T17:20:31Z")
> [@](#): > > I challenge anyone to come up with an explanation based on morals and ethics as to why Israel is constantly ripped over settlements but Saudi Arabia is never condemned for being a criminally evil state. You can’t. It isn’t based on morals or ethics, but much of the reason Israel gets ripped over the settlements is that Israel is a civilized country. Hizbollah and Hamas aren’t. The Islamic terrorist groups don’t care what the UN says, so the UN doesn’t really try to influence them. Much of the rest of the reason is that Israel is a convenient bug bear for other countries to use to distract their people. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/55 "2017-01-09T18:17:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Much of the rest of the reason is that Israel is a convenient bug bear for other countries to use to distract their people. Really? You think people say “oh my, the price of food has skyrocketed and we have 8 hour a day power cuts, but never mind that fuck Israel”?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/56 "2017-01-09T19:03:29Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Go ahead, name the thousand that are worse. That’s a lot of typing. How much are you going to pay me? But, seriously, it’s trivially easy to think of examples and never repeat yourself. Here, just look at the front page of Human Rights Watch right now: North Korea; Where to start? If we’re doing this by government policies North Korea probably qualifies fifty times. Gambia: Democracy collapsing as outgoing president refuses to, well, outgo Burma: Where to begin? Iraq: Again, where does one begin? Child soldiers now. [QUOTE=AK84] Really? You think people say “oh my, the price of food has skyrocketed and we have 8 hour a day power cuts, but never mind that fuck Israel”? [/QUOTE] Uh… of course. Redirecting people’s anger towards outward enemies was an old scheme when Machiavelli was a young lad. I cannot believe anyone would be skeptical of this… why the hell do you think Donald Trump is always railing about China and Mexico and Muslims? Why do you think Argentina invaded the Falklands in 1982? It was to try to keep the junta in power. If you can get the people angry at ethnic/religious/foreign enemies, you can distract them from the fact you’re screwing them. It’s the oldest trick in the book. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/57 "2017-01-09T20:02:09Z")
> [@](#): > > The US should leave the UN What advantage to the US is there in leaving the UN that outweighs the benefit the US derives from being one of the 5 permanent members of the UNSC? That’s the real question. As far as I can tell there isn’t one…which is why we won’t leave the UN. As for hosting the UN in New York, well…again, we derive quite a lot of prestige and benefit from having it here, so not sure why we would want to send them packing, though I guess this could be a point of real debate. Leaving the UN is crazy, but not hosting the UN here in the US is just…not smart (IMHO…and I don’t particularly like the UN and think that overall it’s a waste, especially if you aren’t a permanent member of the UNSC with veto). But it’s not crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/58 "2017-01-09T20:16:02Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > . . . I suppose this question is being asked at this moment largely because the OP disagrees with the UN on the latest pronouncements against Israeli settlements. I, on the other hand, very much agreed with the statements and wish (in this case) that the UN (with the US) could do more. And even if one disagreed…that’s the way democracy works. Some results are going to bother some people. That’s completely inevitable. Democrats don’t want to disband Congress just because Republicans have a majority right now. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/59 "2017-01-09T20:30:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The OP’s position on the UN’s unfairness towards Israel is perfectly justified. Even if you accept that Israel’s settlement programi n the West Bank is unethical and wrong - and I agree it is - it is literally not one of the one thousand worst human rights problems in the world today. I might say it’s one of the worst state-supported programs of a westernized country. There are other problems that are comparable (e.g. the incarceration rate of young black males in the US) but they aren’t an explicit policy of the government. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514/60 "2017-01-09T20:47:37Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Really? You think people say “oh my, the price of food has skyrocketed and we have 8 hour a day power cuts, but never mind that fuck Israel”?:rolleyes: That is self evidently what rulers in the Arab (and some other parts of the Muslim) world have tried to do, with some success. It’s obviously not a permanent and foolproof way to distract popular attention from their failings, but it’s a well established post 1948 part of the mix along with secret police, etc. It’s hard to believe anyone is seriously arguing that international criticism of Israel isn’t disproportionate to its wrongdoing, which it is obviously is. That doesn’t or shouldn’t grant carte blanche to Israel, nor moreover and back on topic is it alone a good enough argument for the US to quit the UN IMO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-should-leave-the-un/776514.md?page=4)