# The US tipping system poisons the eating out well **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430 "2007-05-24T23:58:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/81 "2007-06-06T03:59:03Z")
If it aint broke, dont fix it. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/82 "2007-06-06T11:52:41Z")
[QUOTE=antechinus] In the USA, is tipping practiced in fast food establishments like McDonalds, or only where there are waiters involved? [/QUOTE] No tipping at fast food is the norm. ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/83 "2007-06-06T14:16:56Z")
If there is one thing I am certain of after having worked for tips for 30 years it is that having to work for tips is degrading and humilitaing. I try not to alter my behavior in the presence of a generous tipper but I am sure I do. I also try and give excellent service to everyone regardless of the likelihood of a tip but it is not easy. The fact is, tippers and non-tippers are two different types and the argument against tipping, while valid is merely an effort to avoid appearing cheap and to rationalize anti-social behavior. The custom is established, it’s a done deal, you can’t change it and whining about it simply helps everyone else identify you as the stiff that you are. As for the fact that many waiter/waitresses make a good living, well why the heck shouldn’t they? Do you think they start their service career at a top restaurant. Those persons deemed to be the cream of the crop in any industry get paid a premium. If you want to eat at such a restaurant, pay it, if you don’t stay home. The world will be a nicer place. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/84 "2007-06-10T19:07:21Z")
The American tipping system comes across to me as slave labour being forced to apply emotional blackmail to someone who just wants to chill and enjoy themselves to get any sort of a living wage while the employer pockets the money they should be paying their staff. I find it particulary obnoxious when in a bar you have to tip every single time you buy a drink and they have stunts like ringing a bell if someone gives a big tip and the poor sods serving you are relying on you for money . In the meantime Have I tipped enough ?That bloke over there doesnt seem to be very lucky tonight should I wait until he can serve me? We’re supposed to be enjoying ourselves not getting stressed out or going on guilt trips . We dont tip bus drivers or cops its just a confidence trick by less then scrupulous companies. A previous poster said that if the tip was added to the price we would still be paying the same . Well Im quite happy to do that ,its not the cost that bugs me its the tacit hassling. Also "if you cant afford to tip then have your dinner at home " I would respond with “if you cant afford to pay your staff a living wage then dont go into business,leave it to somebody who can” ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/85 "2007-06-11T01:53:57Z")
The fact is, tippers and non-tippers are two different types and the argument against tipping, while valid is merely an effort to avoid appearing cheap and to rationalize anti-social behavior. The custom is established, it’s a done deal, you can’t change it and whining about it simply helps everyone else identify you as the stiff that you are. “As for the fact that many waiter/waitresses make a good living, well why the heck shouldn’t they? Do you think they start their service career at a top restaurant. Those persons deemed to be the cream of the crop in any industry get paid a premium. If you want to eat at such a restaurant, pay it, if you don’t stay home. The world will be a nicer place.” Lust for Life says "I would respond with “if you cant afford to pay your staff a living wage then dont go into business,leave it to somebody who can” It’s not a question of being able to afford it. It’s a fact of life which is not going to change. Go out to eat and be willing to pay the tip - if you make the menatl adjustment in advance that you are going to add 20 % for decent service you will enjoy yourself a lot more. And no reasonably priced restaurant could go into business by paying waitstaff the $20/hr minimum it would take to live in many cities and be competitive with those paying $2.15. It just isn’t possible. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/86 "2007-06-11T03:07:34Z")
What I find a little strange about these constant threads is that I don’t think about tipping. It’s custom. I do it. I don’t worry about it or fret over it or begrudge it. Going to a tipless system would help more servers than it hurts, so I’m for it. But I don’t expect it to change, so I’ll continue to bumble along with my (usual) 20%. ---
**Author:** ![Full\_Metal\_Lotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Full\_Metal\_Lotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Full_Metal_Lotus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/87 "2007-06-11T03:14:53Z")
Edmonmt, Alberta, Canada, here. I know a waiter, who has been with the same upscale restaurant since the 1970’s. He still makes "minimum wage (nefore tips). After tips, he makes about $75 k/yr. He works late nights He know the menu inside out and know just what the cook can and can not do in modifying changes to the menu he is highly skilled in wine, and although is not an official somienlier (SP?), he could be His service is perfect… simply perfect… he senses the mood of the table and responds acordingly he never interupts, but is always available he does it with grace and makes it look easy He remembers the names an d preferences of regulars, but never assumes he speaks 4 languages he treats the $40 tab as respectfully as he treats the $800 tab he never screws up a reservation in short… the guy deserves what he makes regards FML ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/88 "2007-06-11T03:28:49Z")
edit: posted under wife’s account ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/89 "2007-06-11T03:29:50Z")
re: above post: d’oh! As I’ve said before in these incessant arguments, there’s a perfectly ethical way to not tip: before you’re seated by the hostess, say, “Listen, I don’t believe in tipping, and I don’t plan to tip at the end of this meal.” Repeat this warning to your waiter. By doing so, you’re giving the restaurant the ability to enter freely and with full information into whatever deal they want to enter into with you. If you do not do so, then you _know_ that they are assuming that you’ll tip and are treating you accordingly; you’re knowingly taking advantage of their misunderstanding of their intentions; and you are thereby behaving in a deceitful fashion. But if you give them full information, then you’re good to go. Just don’t be surprised or offended if, when they find out you choose not to tip, they choose not to serve you. It is, after all, their choice to make, once they have the information they need to make their choice. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/90 "2007-06-11T10:57:56Z")
[QUOTE=Full Metal Lotus] Edmonmt, Alberta, Canada, here. I know a waiter, who has been with the same upscale restaurant since the 1970’s. He still makes "minimum wage (nefore tips). After tips, he makes about $75 k/yr. He works late nights He know the menu inside out and know just what the cook can and can not do in modifying changes to the menu he is highly skilled in wine, and although is not an official somienlier (SP?), he could be His service is perfect.. simply perfect.. he senses the mood of the table and responds acordingly he never interupts, but is always available he does it with grace and makes it look easy He remembers the names an d preferences of regulars, but never assumes he speaks 4 languages he treats the $40 tab as respectfully as he treats the $800 tab he never screws up a reservation in short.. the guy deserves what he makes regards FML [/QUOTE] FML you forgot the name of your restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/91 "2007-06-11T11:04:56Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] re: above post: d’oh! As I’ve said before in these incessant arguments, there’s a perfectly ethical way to not tip: before you’re seated by the hostess, say, “Listen, I don’t believe in tipping, and I don’t plan to tip at the end of this meal.” Repeat this warning to your waiter. By doing so, you’re giving the restaurant the ability to enter freely and with full information into whatever deal they want to enter into with you. If you do not do so, then you _know_ that they are assuming that you’ll tip and are treating you accordingly; you’re knowingly taking advantage of their misunderstanding of their intentions; and you are thereby behaving in a deceitful fashion. But if you give them full information, then you’re good to go. Just don’t be surprised or offended if, when they find out you choose not to tip, they choose not to serve you. It is, after all, their choice to make, once they have the information they need to make their choice. Daniel [/QUOTE] The fact that you make this “sincere” effort to be upfront with the waiter and manager, how does this protest the waiter who has to wait on you or lose his job? It doesn’t and of course you know this. Don’t be surprised if someday you stumble into a really nice restaurant where one of the long time employees is retiring and after a wonderful meal with plenty of great wine and a polite thanks to the waitstaff, you get your ass kicked to a bloody pulp in the men’s room. ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/92 "2007-06-11T11:06:03Z")
i don’t know hot to edit, sorry, i meant “protect.” ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/93 "2007-06-11T11:07:07Z")
or type. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/94 "2007-06-11T12:47:01Z")
Some time ago, I asked hereabouts about waiting and tips and in the course of the thread was told that there was a hierarchy - basically you proved yourself at the cheap places before getting hired at the expensive ones. The wages were the same but the tips - and thus the income - went up proportionally. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/95 "2007-06-11T22:07:54Z")
[QUOTE=dennis gallagher] The fact that you make this “sincere” effort to be upfront with the waiter and manager, how does this protest the waiter who has to wait on you or lose his job? It doesn’t and of course you know this. Don’t be surprised if someday you stumble into a really nice restaurant where one of the long time employees is retiring and after a wonderful meal with plenty of great wine and a polite thanks to the waitstaff, you get your ass kicked to a bloody pulp in the men’s room. [/QUOTE] I should be clear: I don’t think this is a good idea (and I apologize for suggesting otherwise before). I just think that it removes one of the major unethical factors of non-tipping, which is that you’re entering into a transaction that you can enter into only by disguising your intentions from another party in the transaction. You’re absolutely right that waiters can get screwed by this. But it gives waiters more wiggle room than they get if you fail to mention your intentions. For example, a waiter can expend minimal effort on your table, prioritizing customers who will pay for service. Or they can speak to the manager, who may decide not to serve your non-tipping ass, as is their right. But waiters with sucky managers are still screwed, and you’re right to point that out. I bring this issue up because most of the self-righteous non-tippers fail to mention that aspect of their personality to establishments until it’s too late for the establishment to decide what kind of bargain they want to strike with the srnt. If we can fix that problem, we’ve made a start. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/96 "2007-06-12T01:34:14Z")
The trouble with getting rid of the U.S. system, of course, is that ALL restaurants would have to get rid of it all at once. The way I figure it, getting rid of tipping absolutely necessitates a significant increase in the cost of the food. If all the restaurants DIDN’T do it at once, people would simply go to the ones that didn’t get rid of tipping, because hey, it’s cheaper. The ones that got rid of tipping would fold, and we’d be back to the same state of affairs. Actually, this brings up a REALLY good question in my mind for you non-American Dopers who’ve visited the States: do you find that restaurants here (which have tipping) are cheaper than they are in countries which don’t have expected tipping? Because if not, then I have to wonder who’s bringing up the argument that the menu prices are cheaper here BECAUSE of expected tipping… ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2024, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/97 "2024-08-20T23:20:24Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > The trouble with getting rid of the U.S. system, of course, is that ALL restaurants would have to get rid of it all at once. The way I figure it, getting rid of tipping absolutely necessitates a significant increase in the cost of the food. If all the restaurants DIDN’T do it at once, people would simply go to the ones that didn’t get rid of tipping, because hey, it’s cheaper. Except there are restaurants going with a no-tipping model. [https://www.colorado.edu/today/2023/07/06/skipping-tip-why-some-restaurants-and-businesses-are-nixing-gratuities#:~:text=Casa%20Bonita%20joins%20other%20restaurants,rational%20way%20of%20compensating%20employees](https://www.colorado.edu/today/2023/07/06/skipping-tip-why-some-restaurants-and-businesses-are-nixing-gratuities#:~:text=Casa%20Bonita%20joins%20other%20restaurants,rational%20way%20of%20compensating%20employees). > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, some high-profile restaurants are moving in the other direction, bucking service-industry convention and eliminating tipping altogether, not to mention surcharges. > > (Snip) > > Casa Bonita joins other restaurants nationwide that have adopted similar no-tipping models, including Lazy Betty in Atlanta and Zazie in San Francisco. > > That’s great news to CU Boulder economics Professor [Jeff Zax](https://www.colorado.edu/faculty/zax/), who believes tipping isn’t a rational way of compensating employees. Zax sat down with CU Boulder Today to discuss the changes afoot with tipping nationwide. > > ## What is your take on restaurants pivoting away from traditional tipping? > > Tipping is the dumbest form of compensation there is. I think the economy would be healthier without it altogether, and I’m very encouraged to see that at least some businesspeople are coming to understand that. I’m glad Casa Bonita is doing it, and I wish all restaurants did. > > There is a fundamental deceit at the core of the tipping enterprise from the perspective of the customer. There’s this idea that maybe it’s a gratuity, which means that it’s sort of a gift and maybe I don’t need to do it. But from the perspective of the worker, it’s a necessity. No one ever said, “I don’t care if I don’t get tips.” Workers think of it as part of their compensation. This discrepancy, this incongruity, creates an inefficiency in the way markets work. Markets work best when everyone knows what the prices are. And with tipping, nobody really knows. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2024, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/98 "2024-08-20T23:21:30Z")
**Leaper** made that comment in 2007. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2024, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/99 "2024-08-20T23:25:39Z")
Doh! Nevermind. I was looking at tipping because of the new proposed elimination of sales taxes for tips. There’s a button at the bottom of threads for “suggested” and another for “related”. Thus an ancient thread showed up looking current. ---
**Author:** ![fedman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/100 "2024-09-20T01:32:47Z")
how do you know they’re “doing well”? Do you question them about their income? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430.md?page=6)