# The US tipping system poisons the eating out well **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430 "2007-05-24T23:58:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/101 "2024-09-20T10:35:16Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Actually, this brings up a REALLY good question in my mind for you non-American Dopers who’ve visited the States: do you find that restaurants here (which have tipping) are cheaper than they are in countries which don’t have expected tipping? The numbers printed on the menu are lower, but between tips and taxes, the price you actually end up paying is about the same. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2024, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/102 "2024-09-22T04:56:48Z")
I think the practice of tipping encourages lower pay, makes it innately harder for the staff to budget since they can’t know their income, and creates resentment between customer and staff. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s considered a hidden benefit by the management; the more anger the staff aim at the customers, the more their resentment is diverted from their bosses. I prefer to avoid any service I think expects tips. Partly because I always have trouble remembering which do and don’t expect it (thus the “I think”), and how much is expected, and partly because of the horror stories I’ve heard about resentful staff doing things like spitting on food or scrubbing toilets with it before serving it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2024, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/103 "2024-09-22T05:35:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > and partly because of the horror stories I’ve heard about resentful staff doing things like spitting on food or scrubbing toilets with it before serving it. So, you tip AFTER service, no? So, unless you are going to the one and only real Psychic in the world, who knows in advance you are gonna stiff them , how would they know? Also I was a line cook- spitting or otherwise adulterating the food is a No-No, which can get someone fired on the spot _and_ the restaurant closed down. And I never saw it. So, I guess if you came to the same place week after week, and not only were you rude, but also stiffed the waitstaff- it is just possible- but then why the holy fuck would you come to a place every week that you hated? So, it doesnt happen. Yeah, I know there are videos, but there are also faked videos, and again- why would someone spit in the food before you gave or didnt give the tip? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2024, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/104 "2024-09-22T07:17:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, you tip AFTER service, no? So, unless you are going to the one and only real Psychic in the world, who knows in advance you are gonna stiff them , how would they know? Because they’d _expect_ it, since tipping trains them to be hostile and suspicious towards customers, and trains customers to be hostile and judgemental to them in return. I said I think it creates hostility between the servers and customers, not that the hostility was tied to any _specific_ person. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2024, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/105 "2024-09-22T11:16:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because they’d _expect_ it, since tipping trains them to be hostile and suspicious towards customers, and trains customers to be hostile and judgemental to them in return. I said I think it creates hostility between the servers and customers, not that the hostility was tied to any _specific_ person. While I agree with your assessment about the effects of tipping as a policy, there is no way any waitstaff are spitting in any food because they are suspicious some random customer might be a bad tipper. They have to be motivated by the actions of a particular person to take hostile action that could get them fired. > [@DrDeth](#): > > So, I guess if you came to the same place week after week, and not only were you rude, but also stiffed the waitstaff- it is just possible- but then why the holy fuck would you come to a place every week that you hated? Who said anyone hated a place? Not tipping or under-tipping is a response to expectations that tips must happen, or can be legitimate unawareness of tip creep. Why are we at 18% to 20% as the suggested to range for restaurants? Did anything change in the level of service provided by servers to justify a larger “bonus” or incentive? Or did restaurants want to pass some of the rising food costs off on the servers so they could keep menu prices lower? It’s the effect of tip creep moving “good service” to a higher expected amount and restaurants using tips as a means of reducing their actual pay rates and hiding legitimate business expenses from the customers to encourage more patronage. It’s deceptive, it creates resentment for both servers and customers, and it implies waitstaff aren’t really worth minimum wage, which is degrading in principle. If tipping truly is about rewarding great service, it should be truly voluntary, rare, and not incorporated into the actual pay structure. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2024, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/106 "2024-09-22T16:36:37Z")
Jesus Fucking Christ. Seek help. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2024, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/107 "2024-09-22T19:30:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because they’d _expect_ it, since tipping trains them to be hostile and suspicious towards customers, and trains customers to be hostile and judgemental to them in return. None of that is true. In fact America is known for having nicer waitstaff than many nations. > [@Irishman](#): > > While I agree with your assessment about the effects of tipping as a policy, there is no way any waitstaff are spitting in any food because they are suspicious some random customer might be a bad tipper. Yes, because- A- it would get them fired on the spot, with cause (no unemployment, and you ar enever gonna be hired in that industry again) and B the restaurant closed down. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/108 "2024-09-25T17:15:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, because- A- it would get them fired on the spot, with cause (no unemployment, and you ar enever gonna be hired in that industry again) and B the restaurant closed down. And C - they’re not monsters, they’re waiters, and maybe actually have a little pride in the work they do. I’ve never felt hostility and suspiciousness from wait staff. If anything they try to be overtly friendly and cheerful because being mean to a customer is no way to get a better tip. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/109 "2024-09-25T21:43:22Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > And…they’re not monsters, they’re waiters I’m reminded of a classic exchange in _The Producers_: Leo Bloom: “_Actors_ are not animals! They’re human beings!” Max Bialystock: “They are? Have you ever eaten with one?” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/110 "2024-09-30T21:04:41Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > While I agree with your assessment about the effects of tipping as a policy, there is no way any waitstaff are spitting in any food because they are suspicious some random customer might be a bad tipper. > > They have to be motivated by the actions of a particular person to take hostile action that could get them fired. I agree, but I’ve read a book by the owner of a bunch of restaurants on Long Island, and the behavior of some customers during ordering or even before might get him to spit in the food, not to mention the servers. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/111 "2024-10-02T09:02:36Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’ve never felt hostility and suspiciousness from wait staff. If anything they try to be overtly friendly and cheerful because being mean to a customer is no way to get a better tip. _By your own argument_ they have a selfish reason to pretend to be “friendly and cheerful”, so them acting like that tells you nothing. And that assumes they aren’t under orders to act like that. (I’m reminded of the Safeway clerk who was fired for not smiling because she was in too much pain) ---
**Author:** ![Galactus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galactus/32/3581_2.png) [@Galactus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galactus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/112 "2024-10-03T00:59:18Z")
Why is tipping based on a percentage of the bill? Why does the waitstaff at a high-end restaurant deserve more money than a mid to lower-end one for doing the same amount of work? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/113 "2024-10-03T16:26:21Z")
> [@Galactus](#): > > Why does the waitstaff at a high-end restaurant deserve more money than a mid to lower-end one for doing the same amount of work? High-end restaurants tend to hire more professional and experienced waitstaff. So, that’s a partial explanation. I do expect “better” service with expensive meals. It’s a minor difference in reality, though. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/114 "2024-10-05T04:01:59Z")
> [@Galactus](#): > > Why is tipping based on a percentage of the bill? Why does the waitstaff at a high-end restaurant deserve more money than a mid to lower-end one for doing the same amount of work? There is a world of difference between the service you get at your local Appleby’s and what you find in a fine dining establishment. In a nutshell, the waitstaff at a fine dining establishment are far more attentive. As soon as you water is empty it will be refilled, if you leave crumbs on the table between courses it is cleaned up, they won’t wait until you put something in your mouth before asking you how everything is, etc., etc. At a high end restaurant you’re usually not just paying for the food you’re paying for the ambiance and the experience. No shade to the waitstaff at Appleby’s. I find the waitstaff at most restaurants do a good job of taking care of their customers. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/115 "2024-10-05T13:25:50Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > At a high end restaurant you’re usually not just paying for the food you’re paying for the ambiance and the experience. I don’t disagree with that at all - but tipping based on the bill also means I tip more for the $36 porterhouse at Outback than I do for the $13 dollar burger at the same restaurant ,and more for the $119 American waygu filet at Gordon Ramsey Steak than the $39 branzino at the same restaurant. I don’t mind paying more for the better service I get at an expensive steakhouse vs Outback or Applebee’s - but I’m not sure why I should tip more in the same restaurant based on the bill (or actually, on the price listed in the menu).Which is why part of why I hate the whole system - people will say you are tipping more for the ambience/level of service, because more expensive items mean more work for the server but those reasons often fall apart when you are talking about different items in the same restaurant. ( And it’s the system I don’t like - as long as this is the system we have, I will follow it , but I’d rather just have that branzino listed on the menu at $49 rather than paying $39 plus a 20% tip. ) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/116 "2024-10-05T13:56:54Z")
I didn’t like tipping because i don’t want to do a job review every time i eat out. If it’s always going to be a flat 20%, just add that to the menu price. But really, i dislike the whole social interaction of “i get to decide if i like your service”. There’s a whispered “because I’m superior to you” that puts me off. And that’s the intention, there’s a reason you are supposed to tip employees but not proprietors, because they are your social equal. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/117 "2024-10-05T14:28:58Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But really, i dislike the whole social interaction of “i get to decide if i like your service”. There’s a whispered “because I’m superior to you” that puts me off. And that’s the intention, there’s a reason you are supposed to tip employees but not proprietors, because they are your social equal. When I first moved to the US (I had never even visited before) I said the silent part out loud. I asked my dining companions why the waitress was being so “familiar”. All social hell broke loose. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/118 "2024-10-05T15:45:39Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > they’re not monsters, they’re waiters Mostly. [![](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120721174556/muppet/images/3/3c/Waiter-poetic.jpg) ](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120721174556/muppet/images/3/3c/Waiter-poetic.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![fedman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2024, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/119 "2024-10-06T01:28:36Z")
And in high-end, waiters are more informed about how food is cooked, etc, esp if they were given samples beforehand ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2024, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/120 "2024-10-08T19:18:39Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > tipping based on the bill also means I tip more for the $36 porterhouse at Outback than I do for the $13 dollar burger at the same restaurant ,and more for the $119 American waygu filet at Gordon Ramsey Steak than the $39 branzino at the same restaurant. I don’t mind paying more for the better service I get at an expensive steakhouse vs Outback or Applebee’s - but I’m not sure why I should tip more in the same restaurant based on the bill This is yet one more reason why the tipping system doesn’t make sense. And honestly, I hadn’t thought of this one, but it’s very true: even if the service is better at a high end restaurant, it’s unlikely to be _multiple times_ better to justify such a difference in tips. They aren’t curing your arthritis. A lot of people are used to the tipping thing and will try to rationalize it. And I get it; I tip sometimes in countries without tipping culture if I really appreciated the service. And that’s the “good kind” of tipping IMO, where the anticipated tip is 0%, and the price encapsulates everything, including staff wages. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430.md?page=7)