# The US tipping system poisons the eating out well **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430 "2007-05-24T23:58:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2024, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/121 "2024-10-08T19:39:53Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > There is a world of difference between the service you get at your local Appleby’s and what you find in a fine dining establishment. In a nutshell, the waitstaff at a fine dining establishment are far more attentive. As soon as you water is empty it will be refilled, if you leave crumbs on the table between courses it is cleaned up, they won’t wait until you put something in your mouth before asking you how everything is, etc., etc. At a high end restaurant you’re usually not just paying for the food you’re paying for the ambiance and the experience. I hate all of this. The entirety of it. We just came back from Japan and LOVED their model. They seat you and then you call them when you are ready to order. They don’t pop by right after you took a bite and ask how the food was and you have to gulp it down to reply. Need another drink? Call them. When done, most bring the bill and you go to the front to pay. DON’T LEAVE A TIP! We would love to see this model come to the US. So much better. Also, restaurants in Japan are universally good. The food quality appeared to be much higher. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2024, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/122 "2024-10-08T20:45:14Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > We would love to see this model come to the US. So much better. Also, restaurants in Japan are universally good. The food quality appeared to be much higher. There was a restaurant in the Dallas area called Panchos where you’d raise a little Mexican flag to get more food or drink. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2024, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/123 "2024-10-08T20:46:22Z")
I’d prefer that method to the standard in the US.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/124 "2024-10-09T17:11:58Z")
> [@zhongguorenmin](#): > > I was thinking how this is simply not an issue here in the UK. > > Here all waiters get minimum wage ($10.50/hr) and tips are a bit of a bonus on top of that. I feel slightly cheap walking out of a UK restaurant without tipping about 10%, but if money’s tight I have absolutely no hesitation. I find the UK approach to tipping a bit hypocritical. The common practice is for restaurants to add a “service charge”, usually 10 or 12.5 percent, to the bill and to itemise it as such. This charge is discretionary, so the customer can refuse to pay it; but since it is included by default, you’d have to go out of your way to tell the waiter you don’t want to pay it, thereby exposing yourself as a cheapskate. The option is there, but I think most customers (including myself) perceive there to be a significant psychological barrier that deters them from doing this. The end result is that in most cases you do end up paying it, but the incentive for the waiter to serve you well is reduced because they expect to get the default tip anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/125 "2024-10-09T20:07:30Z")
Maybe off topic slightly, but having to do math to understand cost due to taxes is another, lesser evil of how the restaurant industry operates in the US. I’m in Rome for a few days, and just finished a meal… the total cost was exactly the sum of the menu prices for each item I got. No additional tips or taxes. Makes it very easy to budget, and to understand your commitment as a customer before the bill arrives. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/126 "2024-10-10T03:37:32Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > The option is there I have worked as a waiter in Cape Town, South Africa and London In SA, I hated the “10% tip” which occasionally appeared as a suggestion on the bills of various restaurants I worked at, because as a decent waiter I often got 20%. In London, fuck me, if I could get a 1% tip that would be a good day. I worked low-end, but those dickheads who work in the “goldern mile” out from their financial jobs for a liquid lunch apparently could not afford a single pound reward for service - and I am a good waiter! Worked silver service at the Millenium Hotel, most famous for the poisoning of Litvinenko, no tips. I think that was hotel policy. I was making £5 an hour At that rate, I needed to work 2 hours to cover just transport. I often walked, because a 10-15km walk costs nothing. One of my favourite books is George Orwell’s “Down and out in Paris and London” - worth a read. > **[Down and Out in Paris and London](https://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks01/0100171h.html)** > > Down and Out in Paris and London, by George Orwell, free ebook ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/127 "2024-10-10T05:13:31Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > We would love to see this model come to the US. So much better. Also, restaurants in Japan are universally good. The food quality appeared to be much higher. The quality is better in fast food as well. I just want to throw in my anecdote about how amazingly good Big Macs are in Tokyo (and I’d assume the rest of Japan, too). It seemed much more carefully put together and so fresh with just the right amount of pepper sprinkled on. I think that they are likely using higher quality ingredients as well. So good. Made me wonder whether it’s the actual Big Mac recipe that is considered so junky and bad in the US or if it’s the way they are made here. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/128 "2024-10-10T10:06:00Z")
I mostly grabbed noodles for lunch in Japan, but i, too, was extremely happy with the service at restaurants there. And in Spain, which i just visited, you do need to flag the waiter for everything other than initially ordering food, but when you do, they come over quickly and take care of you. Very pleasant. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/129 "2024-10-10T12:20:55Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > The quality is better in fast food as well. I just want to throw in my anecdote about how amazingly good Big Macs are in Tokyo (and I’d assume the rest of Japan, too). Yes, we also preferred the service style in France and Spain. They also leave you alone when you are eating but come over when you need something. It never fails that wait staff interrupts to ask how the food is, right after I’ve taken a bite. So freaking annoying. And then I feel obliged to leave a tip for their rudeness (not that it is their fault). Who likes this style of service? How do we lobby Big US Restaurant to be like other countries? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/130 "2024-10-10T12:26:48Z")
> [@zhongguorenmin](#): > > Do you think that the US system of making waiters rely directly on capricious customers for their wages contributes to a certain venom in the whole area of dining out? It’s gotten very bad. Now, if you go into a place like “Subway”, for example, the credit card machine has a tipping prompt, and the server stares at you while you are paying. It used to be that you tipped for table service, but not for fast food service. Now, they want a tip for handing you a bag and ringing your bill. Also, if you tip less than 18% now, you get a dirty look. They expect 20% or more. The long and the short of it is that it is a definite economic factor in eating out, and so it has to affect how often people eat out and how much money they spend. I hate our system. Businesses need to pay their employees. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/131 "2024-10-10T12:36:37Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But really, i dislike the whole social interaction of “i get to decide if i like your service”. There’s a whispered “because I’m superior to you” that puts me off. And that’s the intention, there’s a reason you are supposed to tip employees but not proprietors, because they are your social equal. But you do this in every provider-customer interaction anyway, regardless of whether there is a tip involved. If I hire a plumber and he puts the faucet on upside down so water shoots up in the air, I’m judging his handiwork and not paying his fee unless it’s fixed. Likewise, when people seek my professional assistance, they judge my work, and if it doesn’t meet their standards you can bet I’m fixing it or not getting paid. In either case, of course it’s the consumer getting to decide if “they like your service”. That’s exactly how it should be. Who else should get to decide? I don’t see it as “because I’m superior to you”. I see it as “because I’m paying for it” ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/132 "2024-10-10T12:53:24Z")
I think the difference is that you aren’t going to pay the plumber if he doesn’t actually provide the service you are paying for - you don’t pay him if he puts the faucet in upside down, but you don’t pay him less if you don’t like his mood, or more if he gives you free services that his boss expects him to charge for. You don’t adjust his pay because he chats too much or too little for your liking. ---
**Author:** ![Strenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@Strenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strenger)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/133 "2024-10-10T13:14:23Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > It’s gotten very bad. Now, if you go into a place like “Subway”, for example, the credit card machine has a tipping prompt, and the server stares at you while you are paying. It used to be that you tipped for table service, but not for fast food service Thank you. Yeah, even at a drive-thru burger joint…granted, the’re usually very nice and whatever…but I ain’t tipping shit for that! Even walk-in pizza joints where you walk in, get a slice, and leave. In the latter case, I was a few times somewhat guilted/pressured to be the “big man” by a gal I was seeing, but c’mon. No, I’m not tipping no fucking drive-thru person, nor a pizza jockey. They do good works, and I appreciate them by being polite, patient, and courteous. Besides, some card-based tip…how do I know that’s going to the staff? And I’m pretty sure handing a few bills to the server to stuff in their pants is going to cause some problems for the contact. > [@wguy123](#): > > t never fails that wait staff interrupts to ask how the food is, right after I’ve taken a bite. So freaking annoying. Yeah. Yet another good reason to plan one’s meetings or socializations elsewhere than at the trough. Solution: don’t eat out, or only eat/drink/socialize at the bar. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/134 "2024-10-10T13:22:33Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I think the difference is that you aren’t going to pay the plumber if he doesn’t actually provide the service you are paying for - you don’t pay him if he puts the faucet in upside down, but you don’t pay him less if you don’t like his mood, or more if he gives you free services that his boss expects him to charge for. You don’t adjust his pay because he chats too much or too little for your liking. I get it and I understand the distinction. Still I think the general point holds. The customer has every right to decide how a service was performed. I was more annoyed at puzzlegal’s insinuation that there is some kind of classist judgement being made in the server-diner relationship. It has nothing to do with that for most people. There are very basic things they should be able to expect of a server while dining out; fill my water glass, address any concerns or issues promptly, treat me with at least a modicum of respect, etc. It is not affecting an air of superiority if you judge a server to have not met those expectations. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/135 "2024-10-10T19:26:21Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > One of my favourite books is George Orwell’s “Down and out in Paris and London” - worth a read. Seconded. Great book. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/136 "2024-10-10T21:30:16Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > It is not affecting an air of superiority if you judge a server to have not met those expectations. It’s not the act of having expectations, it’s the monetary compensation itself. > **[Gratuity](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity)** > > A gratuity (often called a tip) is a sum of money customarily given by a customer to certain service sector workers such as hospitality for the service they have performed, in addition to the basic price of the service. > Tips and their amount are a matter of social custom and etiquette, and the custom varies between countries and between settings. In some countries, it is customary to tip servers in bars and restaurants, taxi drivers, tattoo artists, hair stylists and so on. However, in some plac... The roots of gratuity are the Middle Ages. Here’s what wikipedia has to say. > [@](#): > > The practice of tipping began in [Tudor England](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudor_England).[[14]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity#cite_note-nytimes.com-14) In medieval times, **tipping was a master-serf custom** wherein a servant would receive extra money for having performed superbly well.[[15]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity#cite_note-15) > > (Snip) > > The practice was imported from Europe to America in the 1850s and 1860s by Americans who wanted to seem aristocratic.[[16]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity#cite_note-16) However, until the early 20th century, Americans viewed tipping as inconsistent with the values of an egalitarian, democratic society, as the origins of tipping were premised upon [noblesse oblige](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noblesse_oblige), **which promoted tipping as a means to establish social status to inferiors.** [[17]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity#cite_note-Segrave1998-17) Six American states passed laws that made tipping illegal. > > (Snip) > > Some have argued that “The original workers that were not paid anything by their employers were newly freed slaves” and that **“This whole concept of not paying them anything and letting them live on tips carried over from slavery.”[[18]]**([Gratuity - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity#cite_note-18))[[19]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity#cite_note-19)[[20]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity#cite_note-20) The anti-tipping movement spread to Europe with the support of the labour movement, which led to the eventual abolition of customary tipping in most European countries. > > (Snip) > > However, the introduction of [Prohibition](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition) in the US in 1919 had an enormous impact on hotels and restaurants, who lost the revenue of selling alcoholic beverages. The resulting financial pressure caused proprietors to welcome tips, as a way of supplementing employee wages.[[21]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity#cite_note-Mentzer2013-21) Bolding added. Plus, tipping isn’t fair because it isn’t solely based on service. > [@](#): > > However, studies of the practice in America suggest that tipping is often discriminatory or arbitrary: workers receive different levels of gratuity based on factors such as age, sex, race, hair color and even breast size, and the size of the gratuity is found to be only tenuously related to the quality of service.[[8]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity#cite_note-freak-8) To sum up: Tipping originated as a master/ serf relation, based on noblesse oblige. Tipping was originally resisted in the US because it was anti-egalitarian. Tipping became acceptable as the form of wage for former slaves after emancipation. It became popular in restaurants and hotels during Prohibition, when owners were losing money from alcohol sales, shifting some of the expense to the customers. Contrary to popular opinion, tipping in practice is determined more by appearance than quality of service. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/137 "2024-10-10T21:59:13Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Contrary to popular opinion, tipping in practice is determined more by appearance than quality of service. I pretty much tip 20% (up from 15%) these days no matter what level of service I get. I’m even mindful of what the working environment is like. i.e. If service is a bit slow but I can see the waiter working his ass off I’m sure not going to punish him for that. If I can’t see why service is slow, I give my server the benefit of the doubt and tip 20%. I agree, what percentage given has little to do with the level of service I get. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/138 "2024-10-10T22:07:12Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I don’t disagree with that at all - but tipping based on the bill also means I tip more for the $36 porterhouse at Outback than I do for the $13 dollar burger at the same restaurant ,and more for the $119 American waygu filet at Gordon Ramsey Steak than the $39 branzino at the same restaurant. And that’s before you even get to the wine list. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/139 "2024-10-10T22:22:41Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Tipping became acceptable as the form of wage for former slaves after emancipation. Read your cite “Some have argued that…” _Some have argued_ that the earth is flat. This is part of some writers taking _everything_ they dont like- police, gun, whatever, and saying it originated with slavery. They have been wrong 100% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430/140 "2024-10-10T22:29:49Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > I was more annoyed at puzzlegal’s insinuation that there is some kind of classist judgement being made in the server-diner relationship. It has nothing to do with that for most people. It may or may not be what’s on some people’s mind - but it’s no coincidence that traditionally, the owner of a business was not tipped, even if he or she acted as a server or did the haircutting. It doesn’t have to be on someone’s mind to be a classist custom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-us-tipping-system-poisons-the-eating-out-well/405430.md?page=8)