# The USA: "a pacified public and malleable media" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2016, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490 "2016-03-10T00:24:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/61 "2016-03-11T01:36:45Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Given that our last big anti-terror strike turned out to be an MSF hospital, for reasons no one in power seemed able to explain, I’m a little surprised at the level of faith shown here in the military’s judgment. I’d like to see the citation that our people in power can’t explain what happened. Of course they won’t say how they found the terrorists, otherwise the terrorists would be able to hide better. They could explain this if we forced them too. No doubt this event was tragic, something went terribly wrong. I have complete confidence the air crew aboard the AC-130 were following their plans and procedures to the letter. There is a problem with these, and yes, the military is looking in to this and fixing it. It’s not like the USA is beheading innocent Arabs on YouTube like the terrorists are doing. I have complete faith in the US Military, unquestionably … it is the US Congress I have no faith in, they could pull us out within the [del]hour[/del] month. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/62 "2016-03-11T05:42:43Z")
> [@XT](#): > > When the military has fucked up, and gods know they have, it’s not been covered up…it’s been dragged through the mud and the blood. My Lai was initially announced as a successful operation in which 120 enemy combatants were killed. I have no reason to believe that the action against al-Shabab shares any other similarities with that massacre, but the My Lai story held up for more than a year until Seymour Hersh’s story broke. The Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch stories were only covered up for weeks, but it still took a while for the truth to come out. Even as to the Kunduz hospital, where, as **Ravenman** notes, the news was out immediately, the military was still [criticized](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/06/doctors-without-borders-airstrike-afghanistan-us-account-changes-again) for telling four stories over four days. We still don’t know what really happened with the [bombing](http://www.newsweek.com/wedding-became-funeral-us-still-silent-one-year-deadly-yemen-drone-strike-291403) of what was allegedly a civilian Yemeni wedding in 2013. I’m not sure that we have ever learned more about the alleged thousands of previously-unreported civilian Iraqi deaths that Wikileaks, at least a few thousand of which the Iraq Body Count added to its list. I believe that Wikileaks also alleged that a few journalist deaths had been listed as enemy combatants, and I don’t know that any investigation of those allegations has ever been publicly announced. Not sure what you mean by the reference to Abu Ghraib – that came out through Amnesty International, the AP, and FOIA, although there was an Army criminal investigation underway. Moreover, Wikileaks alleged that hundreds of reports of continuing abuses there even after the scandal broke went uninvestigated. I fully agree with you that the military can do a great job of investigating. But it can also sometimes do a good job of not investigating, at least until it is pressured to. I also fully agree that action against al-Shabab is warranted. I just don’t think I’m obliged to take the military’s initial descriptions as the final word on the subject, and I think it’s reasonable to expect to be provided with more detail and corroboration as time goes on. > [@watchwolf49](#): > > II have complete confidence the air crew aboard the AC-130 were following their plans and procedures to the letter. The military [concluded](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike#US_Military_internal_investigation) otherwise, finding that they made navigational errors and failed to consult their no-strike list. It seems we know how it happened, but not why. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/63 "2016-03-11T06:54:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > That tragedy was reported immediately. Do you have any cites showing that this attack was on innocent people? I don’t think you’re getting the burden of proof: the world doesn’t have to show the US military it’s not a US defined terrorist. It’s for the attacker to justify the attack. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/64 "2016-03-11T06:55:36Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I have complete faith in the US Military Ahw, bless. The world will sleep better tonight knowing that. ---
**Author:** ![Ellecram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellecram/32/18948_2.png) [@Ellecram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellecram)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/65 "2016-03-11T08:56:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Do you suppose that if only we stopped hunting terrorists that want to kill us, that they would decide we’re not so bad after all and disband? Do we ever go a bit deeper and ask the question, “Why do the terrorists want to kill us?” ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/66 "2016-03-11T10:02:53Z")
> [@Ellecram](#): > > Do we ever go a bit deeper and ask the question, “Why do the terrorists want to kill us?” Don’t bother. You will only get nonsense like “They hate us cause they ain’t us.” or “they hate us because our freedom.” If you then point out the shit the US has actually done, it’s “Realpolitik” or “Other nations do that too.” or you’re simply engaged in America bashing or believe anti-American propaganda. US propaganda is, of course, simply ‘news’. Only the governments of other countries lie and have nefarious reasons for their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/67 "2016-03-11T11:09:50Z")
> [@Ellecram](#): > > Do we ever go a bit deeper and ask the question, “Why do the terrorists want to kill us?” Does it matter? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/68 "2016-03-11T11:53:37Z")
It does if you want it to stop because killing a few just incites many more. The US has designed a war without end. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/69 "2016-03-11T12:03:27Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Indeed. > > It looks and feels from afar as if the people of the US have been hoaxed into a wartime mentality, with the help of mainstram media. > > How on earth can you not seriously question the killing of 150 people in your name, given there is no public access to the decision making process … > > Any other mature country, governments would fall over this. Like whom? The UK? Russia? France? China? This whole “The US is bad!” “But what about…” “DON’T LOOK AT WHAT ANY OTHER COUNTRY IS DOING, THE US IS THE WORSTEST EVER!” thing is a bit tiring. Yes, the US has done and continues to do violent, morally questionable things. And it is right that we attempt to put in place as much accountability for it as we can. But if you think doing violent, morally questionable things makes it exceptional, I’m afraid you’re engaged in some spectacular denial about the state of the world. And in fact while the US does these things it also gets a lot more internal and external scrutiny than most other countries do. > [@Latro](#): > > Don’t bother. You will only get nonsense like “They hate us cause they ain’t us.” or “they hate us because our freedom.” Yes, because that’s what we’ve been saying, oh wait, no it isn’t. > [@](#): > > If you then point out the shit the US has actually done, it’s “Realpolitik” or “Other nations do that too.” or you’re simply engaged in America bashing or believe anti-American propaganda. US propaganda is, of course, simply ‘news’. > Only the governments of other countries lie and have nefarious reasons for their actions. I think you’re confusing us with someone else who handwaves away any criticisms and ignores all actual substantive responses. I’m sure an example will come to mind shortly… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/70 "2016-03-11T13:03:29Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I don’t think you’re getting the burden of proof: the world doesn’t have to show the US military it’s not a US defined terrorist. It’s for the attacker to justify the attack. The US government has given its side of the story. If it were fabricated, I think it is reasonable to expect that the press would have some whiff of wrongdoing by now. But in fact, the Guardian story linked earlier contains quotes from Somalis that back up the US account. The very same story quotes an unnamed Al Shabaab spokesman saying that his group was attacked, but that the US was exaggerating the number killed. War isn’t a judicial process. There’s no burden of proof to carry out an air strike. The law of armed conflict simply requires discrimination and proportionality, which has been the legal standard for generations. You’re simply poorly informed on international humanitarian law, but if you surf around the Red Cross website, they have lots of legal resources to help educate you. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/71 "2016-03-11T13:07:37Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes, the US has done and continues to do violent, morally questionable things. And it is right that we attempt to put in place as much accountability for it as we can. But if you think doing violent, morally questionable things makes it exceptional, I’m afraid you’re engaged in some spectacular denial about the state of the world. And in fact while the US does these things it also gets a lot more internal and external scrutiny than most other countries do. Then help me out. In which countries do presidential candidates propose torture or carpet bombing as a policy because they think it will appeal to the electorate? Which countries bomb as standard policy, which countries killed 150 people involved in a civil war - at anytime - and didn’t bother explaining why? etc, etc. If you don’t think this policy of drone, missile and drone attacks from Pakistan to Afghanistan, to Syria, down to Yemen and across to East Africa isn’t exceptional, which other countries do that across a big chunk of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/72 "2016-03-11T13:26:29Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Then help me out. In which countries do presidential candidates propose torture or carpet bombing as a policy because they think it will appeal to the electorate? Which countries bomb as standard policy, which countries killed 150 people involved in a civil war - at anytime - and didn’t bother explaining why? I can’t think of any. > [@](#): > > How on earth can you not seriously question the killing of 150 people in your name, given there is no public access to the decision making process … > > Any other mature country, governments would fall over this. Are you saying that this has actually happened, where a government fell because they bombed 150 terrorists? If so, which country? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/73 "2016-03-11T13:32:55Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > It does if you want it to stop because killing a few just incites many more. We can kill them too. Once they’ve decided to point a gun at our heads, I don’t really care about their backstory. > [@](#): > > The US has designed a war without end. I didn’t know it was the US that committed 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/74 "2016-03-11T13:40:16Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Then help me out. In which countries do presidential candidates propose torture or carpet bombing as a policy because they think it will appeal to the electorate? Which countries bomb as standard policy, which countries killed 150 people involved in a civil war - at anytime - and didn’t bother explaining why?. You mean other than Russia? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/75 "2016-03-11T13:57:41Z")
Russia what? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/76 "2016-03-11T13:58:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We can kill them too. Once they’ve decided to point a gun at our heads, I don’t really care about their backstory. Ah yes, the Vietnam strategy. Or the Iraq strategy. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/77 "2016-03-11T14:00:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I can’t think of any. > Are you saying that this has actually happened, where a government fell because they bombed 150 terrorists? If so, which country? > > Regards, > Shodan God this is hard work. No …because if they did …join up the dots. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/78 "2016-03-11T14:05:18Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Russia what? Killing civilians in a civil war and saying that those women and children were ISIL. Campaigning on making war in Ukraine, Gerogia, Chechnya, and Syria. Printing up rd baseball caps that read, “Make Russia Great Again.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/79 "2016-03-11T14:31:21Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > God this is hard work. No …because if they did …join up the dots. So there are no mature country governments, and the US is no different from anyone else. I don’t know what dots you want to connect. You claim that the US should fall, because they bombed some terrorists, and didn’t explain why. Yes, they did bomb some terrorists, but they did explain why, and their explanation makes sense. Your notion of the US media going tamely along with whatever they hear from the government/mililtary-industrial complex/Illuminati/international banking conspiracy/shape-shifting lizards from the fourth dimension is wrong. If there were any indication that this was a horrible atrocity, the media would be on it like a duck on a June bug. You will notice (or perhaps not) that even the spokesman from al-Shaboob only disputed the number of his nasty henchmen who had been sent to their eternal reward - not that they were linked to al-Queda, or that they weren’t anti-Crusader revolutionaries working for a world subject to the rule of the latest Islamic fuckjob, or any of the rest of it. The notion that there is a sinister conspiracy to foment war because we use drones instead of court orders to cease and desist is kind of silly. (No offense). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490/80 "2016-03-11T17:15:14Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Ah yes, the Vietnam strategy. Or the Iraq strategy. And the Germany strategy, and the Japan strategy, and the Confederacy strategy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usa-a-pacified-public-and-malleable-media/748490.md?page=3)