# The use of "Anglo" to mean "white American"... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 5, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492 "2003-11-05T04:25:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/41 "2003-11-08T04:25:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mehitabel \* > \*\*I’m mostly Irish and dislike being called an ‘anglo’ but the explanation that it has to do with language rather than nationality pacifies me. Mostly. > > So, what would they call African and Asian-Americans who only speak English? \*\* In Canada, it would depend on the context. For example, if the context is determing access to minority language school rights, they would likely be called anglophone or francophone, depending on which language was their mother tongue. If the context wasn’t tied to language rights, then I doubt that the terms would be used at all - more likely a reference to ethnic origin, rather than a reference to language used. The terms “anglophone” “francophone” and “allophone” tend to be used in discussions of minority language schooling, because one’s native language is key to determining minority language school rights. A person whose language “first learned and still understood” is English has the right to have their children schooled in English in Quebec, and a person whose language “first learned and still understood” is French has the right to have their children schooled in French in the other provinces. The right to minority language schooling is not tied to ethnic origins, so in that context, a person of African-Canadian ethnic origin who speaks English as a native tongue would be an anglophone, and one who speaks French as a native tongue would be a francophone. ---
**Author:** ![Doobieous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/42 "2003-11-10T04:52:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hemlock \* > \*\* > > In both cases, that’s the vernacular for people like you. It’s their language, not yours. \*\* Ok then, well then Latinos shouldn’t be insulted when “anglos” use “hispanic” instead of “Latino” or “Chicano” (who seem to be the primary users of “anglo” among people I know. I once said in class that if the people in class were going to call caucasians “anglo” then i was well within right to call them all “hispanic”, which they had issue with, being a primarily latino class. They said hispanic “incorrectly described them”. I pointed out that Anglo refers to a particular ethnic group, the Anglo-saxons, and Germans are NOT anglo, the French are NOT anglo, etc. etc. Using it for anyone not of Anglo-Saxon ancestry “incorrectly defined caucasians”. No one could argue against that, but of course they went back to saying anglo. I’d love to see my classmates say to a Quebecois that they were Anglo, whcih i know they would if they hadn’t heard them speak. ---
**Author:** ![GawnFishin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@GawnFishin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GawnFishin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/43 "2003-11-10T15:48:51Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Doobieous** _ > > I pointed out that Anglo refers to a particular ethnic group, the Anglo-saxons, and Germans are NOT anglo Maybe you didn’t read what I had written previously. > [@](#): > > These men came from three nations of **Germany** : from the Old Saxons, from the **Angles** , from the Jutes. Maybe you can cite from someone as I have [cited](http://www.angelcynn.org.uk/). If I am wrong I will appologise but I can’t find an argument to help your claim here. Maybe current terminology we use refers to one thing however is current terminology correct? I also live in Quebec and even though I have no family connection to England Except for a distant Scottish great grand father and yet I get called English by the Quebecois now try calling some one from Quebec a French man and see what happens… ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/44 "2003-11-10T15:52:22Z")
Well, Doobieous perhaps should have inserted the word “most” before “Germans”, but apart from that he was correct. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/45 "2003-11-10T15:59:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 12 parsecs from home \* > \*\*I also live in Quebec and even though I have no family connection to England Except for a distant Scottish great grand father \*\* :smack: I think you’ve inadvertantly just demonstrated why the word is irritating when used incorrectly. A Scottish great grand father is **not** a family connection to England. At all. ---
**Author:** ![GawnFishin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@GawnFishin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GawnFishin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/46 "2003-11-10T16:14:32Z")
I would agree however the quote stated that… > [@](#): > > Anglo refers to a particular ethnic group, the **Anglo-saxons** And my comment being that… the three nations of Germany Angles, Saxons and, Jute. Two from three is most. Also note that **Doobieous** writes that the term Anglo refers to a particular ethnic group the Anglo-Saxons and states that this is not German. I am stating I disagree the term would indicate a German origin and not an English origin. I know it’s not the definition we use today but that doesn’t make it correct. Ignorance of the factual origin doesn’t change the origin. Only the way we use the word today. Disclaimer there was and is no intent to claim any person as being Ignorant. And once again if it is proven that I am the one who is incorrect here I shall offer an appology and a retraction of my comments. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/47 "2003-11-10T16:21:35Z")
That cite says “three nations of Germany”, not “_the_ three nations”. Two out of, er, a lot more ain’t “most”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/48 "2003-11-10T16:23:05Z")
> [@](#): > > I am stating I disagree the term would indicate a German origin and not an English origin. What definition of “English” are you referring to then? ---
**Author:** ![GawnFishin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@GawnFishin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GawnFishin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/49 "2003-11-10T16:24:55Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Futile Gesture** _ > > A Scottish great grand father is not a family connection to England. You see my point. Though some would say this is English when in fact it is not. Just as Anglo is also not English. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/50 "2003-11-10T16:29:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Just as Anglo is also not English. Once again, I have to ask what you think you mean by “English” then. If you’re going to use history and etymology as a basis for your argument, then do you take into acccount that “English” is nothing more than “Angle-ish”? If “English” is not “Anglo,” then what is it? ---
**Author:** ![GawnFishin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@GawnFishin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GawnFishin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/51 "2003-11-10T16:38:02Z")
> [@](#): > > That cite says “three nations of Germany”, not “the three nations”. Two out of, er, a lot more ain’t “most”. How many nations were there. Cite please. And yes I could be wrong. > [@](#): > > What definition of “English” are you referring to then? > [@](#): > > As posted by me. > > I am stating I disagree the term would indicate a German origin and not an English origin. Should read "I disagree and believe the term would indicate a German origin and not an English origin. Does this help? ---
**Author:** ![GawnFishin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@GawnFishin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GawnFishin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/52 "2003-11-10T16:44:42Z")
Touche you point is taken. And I stand corrected, however does this make a Welsh person English? And then again what is Brittish and were does this come from. The point I am trying to make maybe badly is that Anglo doesn’t refer to all things from England. Or the French Angle-terre. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/53 "2003-11-10T16:52:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Touche you point is taken. And I stand corrected, however does this make a Welsh person English? And then again what is Brittish and were does this come from. The point I am trying to make maybe badly is that Anglo doesn’t refer to all things from England. Or the French Angle-terre. I’m sorry, but I’m still not grasping what you’re saying here. I said “Anglo” means “English.” You ask “does this make a Welsh person English”? Whether it does or not, the answer has nothing to do with Germans. Either the Welsh are English or they’re not. Either they’re Anglo or they’re not. The point of the thread is that in some instances, “Anglo” refers to the English as an ethnic group and in some instances, “Anglo” refers to English the language. You ask about the British. “British” has several possible meanings – the British Isles (which includes Ireland), the British state (which includes Northern Ireland), Great Britain (which includes Scotland and Wales), or to the pre-Anglo-Saxon peoples of Britain (sometimes just the Celts, sometimes more than just the Celts). To the Romans, Britain was what we call England and Wales. Again, none of this seems relevant to the use of “Anglo” as proposed in the OP. > [@](#): > > The point I am trying to make maybe badly is that Anglo doesn’t refer to all things from England. Or the French Angle-terre. Your point still isn’t clear to me. ---
**Author:** ![GawnFishin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@GawnFishin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GawnFishin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/54 "2003-11-10T17:09:04Z")
> [@](#): > > As originally posted by Me > > Also note that Doobieous writes that the term Anglo refers to a particular ethnic group the Anglo-Saxons and states that this is not German. I am stating I disagree the term would indicate a German origin and not an English origin. I know it’s not the definition we use today but that doesn’t make it correct. Ignorance of the factual origin doesn’t change the origin. Only the way we use the word today. Ok then lets get back into context and maybe this will become clearer since I should have reread more carefully. And yes the correction should apply. Whereas I meant to say “I disagree and believe the term would indicate a German origin and not an English origin.” And I hold to this as fact in context then is English the origin or Germanic the origin. Now do you see my point. What came first the Chicken or the Egg? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/55 "2003-11-10T17:15:07Z")
**12 parsecs** , do you know _why_ “Anglo-Saxon” is used to mean “English”? And do you know the difference between a “Germanic origin” and a “German origin”? ---
**Author:** ![curly\_chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ba0ec/32.png) [@curly\_chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curly_chick)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/56 "2003-11-10T17:18:59Z")
Surely the whole point of Anglo as a descriptor for a subsection of Americans is as precise as the use of African as a descriptor for a different subsection of Americans? That is to say not particularly precise at all and just a means of trying to describe the particular American in question without calling him black or white. ---
**Author:** ![GawnFishin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@GawnFishin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GawnFishin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/57 "2003-11-10T17:28:03Z")
Acsenray Two questions for you and I’ll shut up. What does “origin” mean? 1st use or your latest definition. Where does England get it’s name from the people or did the people take their name from the land. What is an origin. Do you know. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/58 "2003-11-10T17:46:05Z")
I’m sure both you and I know what “origin” means and both of us can look it up in the dictionary if we don’t. What I don’t understand is why you ask the question. I have the bizarre feeling of being led towards a semantic argument regarding the _irrelevant_ term being used. Yes, England was originally named for the Angles (Angle-land), who were a _Germanic_ people (not _German_–there weren’t any Germans yet). After the name “England” was established, the people of England drew their name from the country – people who were ethnically Saxons, Angles, Jutes, and various kinds of Celts became the English. But not all of them. Some of them became Cornish, some Welsh, some Cumbrian, some Scots, rather than English. In time, Cornish and Cumbrian also became English. Over the centuries all kinds of people who were not ethnically Angles, Saxons, or Jutes became English, whether as members of major invading tribes (Danes, Norsemen, Normans, etc.) or as other kinds of immigrants (from nearly anywhere and everywhere, I daresay). “Anglo” and “English” were borrowed from a particular tribe to apply to a place and then to the people of that place and then to the language that those people spoke. This is a natural linguistic progression. But, again, I really don’t know why I’m saying all this, because I get the feeling you know already. I’m just wondering what any of it has to do with the point you are making, and what, indeed, exactly that point is. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/59 "2003-11-10T18:23:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 12 parsecs from home \* > **How many nations were there. Cite please. And yes I could be wrong.** Have a look [here](http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/WestEurope/GermanicTribes.html). BTW I think the Jutes weren’t of Germany at all, but of Denmark. acsenray: > [@](#): > > “British” has several possible meanings – the British Isles (which includes Ireland), the British state (which includes Northern Ireland), Great Britain (which includes Scotland and Wales), or to the pre-Anglo-Saxon peoples of Britain (sometimes just the Celts, sometimes more than just the Celts). “British” does _not_ include Ireland. Even the term “the British Isles” is objectionable to many Irish people. Also, you wouldn’t really use it to refer to the pre-Anglo Saxon people of Britain. “Britons”, yes, but “British” no. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492/60 "2003-11-10T19:19:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Even the term “the British Isles” is objectionable to many Irish people. Objectionable or not, if one _does_ use the term “British Isles,” then it must include Ireland, regardless of the feelings of the Irish. The point is that “British” can mean one of many things. It’s besides the point that some might find some of those meanings objectionable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-anglo-to-mean-white-american/211492.md?page=4)