# The use of the atomic bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, was it justified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2025, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901 "2025-08-10T03:53:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/41 "2025-08-10T17:51:14Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > It wasn’t about getting the Japanese to surrender, This is the bit there is no evidence for. That some of the US leadership were also considering the post war relationship with Stalin, doesn’t change the fact the main consideration was making Japan surrender, and avoid the invasion of Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/42 "2025-08-10T17:58:52Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > What would Viet Nam have been like if we had leveled Hanoi? Angrier. There’s a big difference between war of defense and a war of colonialism. Japan started a war with us, they didn’t _need_ motivation to keep fighting since they _wanted_ the fight. Also, we attacked the population there all the time. Lots of killing, lots of rape, lots of torture. Didn’t work. We just made the Communists look better in comparison (an achievement, in its own twisted way given how bad _they_ were). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/43 "2025-08-10T18:02:22Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > It was for both reasons, and both reasons were eminently justifiable on the grounds of preventing an order-of-magnitude greater loss of life. Even if we only focus on just Japan (and not the Soviets) I recall reading something about Truman deciding whether to drop the bomb. He finally decided that if he didn’t and had to send US soldiers in every mother in the US would never forgive him. Truman’s goal was protect US lives, not Japanese lives. [Operation Downfall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall), the proposed invasion of Japan to end the war, was considered so dangerous to US lives that the US government made enough Purple Heart medals that we still use them today. It should also be noted that the invasion of Japan would have certainly cost more Japanese lives than dropping the bombs did. Not even close really. If the goal was to maximize lives saved then the atomic bombs probably were the best choice at the time (least bad of bad choices). ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/44 "2025-08-10T18:11:38Z")
**Moderating:** > [@Dinsdale](#): > > What would Viet Nam have been like if we had leveled Hanoi? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Angrier. There’s a big difference between war of defense and a war of colonialism. Japan started a war with us, they didn’t _need_ motivation to keep fighting since they _wanted_ the fight. The discussion on the morality of the conflict of Vietnam is a worthy subject and has several of it’s own threads, but here it isn’t serving as a good comparison to the OPs question about using Nuclear weapons in a World War situation. Feel free as always to spin off a new thread, but do not continue it in this thread. > **How to Reply as a linked Topic** > > Click Reply, in the upper left corner of the reply window is the reply type button, _looks like a curving arrow point to the right_. > > Choose **Reply as linked topic** and it starts a new thread. As an example, you can choose GD, IMHO or The Pit for it. > > That is actually the best method. _This is just a guidance, not a warning. Nothing on your permanent record._ ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/45 "2025-08-10T18:20:15Z")
Sorry, I read the OP and initial responses as opening discussion of total war. Not debating your modding. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/46 "2025-08-10T18:20:42Z")
This is pretty much. As the other Doper pointed out, killing 125,000 Tokyoites with napalm and magnesium in a single night’s firebombing gets a shrug, but killing people in two cities with nuclear fission is somehow considered morally wrong. It’s strange logic. It reminds me of how the U.S. government set a “red line” for the Assad regime in Syria: “Don’t you dare kill your people with chemical weapons (but killing them with AK-47s is apparently okay.)” People get weirdly hung up on the method of killing. Death is death. Disclaimer: I can understand why people **today** don’t want to use nukes - it can lead to nuclear retaliation if your adversary has nukes of his own. But in 1945, America had a nuclear monopoly. There was no risk that Japan would send nukes flying back at America in retaliation. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/47 "2025-08-10T18:27:42Z")
That’s fine - but as the OP was very narrowly focused on the one specific incident, and because it’s so emotionally charged, I wanted to keep it to said focus. A thread on the differences of Total War vs. Limited engagements would certainly be interesting thus the reminder of how easy it is to spin off. ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/48 "2025-08-10T18:28:14Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > My parents generation lived, fought and died in WW2, not a single one of them ever said a word about the two A-Bomb drops being morally wrong or unnecessary. They just lived though total war in Europe and saw how Russia defended its homeland, they saw the Bomb as a blessing from God. > > This revisiting history and judgment of the pass based upon lack of first hand knowledge or experiance would have been deemed candy assed behavior by my dad. When the bombs were dropped, President Truman was not aware of the extent of the carnage it would inflict on the civilian population. When he was enlightened about the burned, mangled, and radiation sickness-ridden victims, he was horrified to the point of being broken, and ordered that no further atom bomb be dropped without his express permission. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/49 "2025-08-10T18:35:08Z")
> [@themapleleaf](#): > > When the bombs were dropped, President Truman was not aware of the extent of the carnage it would inflict on the civilian population. When he was enlightened about the burned, mangled, and radiation sickness-ridden victims, he was horrified to the point of being broken, and ordered that no further atom bomb be dropped without his express permission. Do you have a cite for this? IIRC Truman was disturbed by the total destruction (same as most people would be) but never wavered from the need to have used the atomic bombs on Japan. He certainly never seemed “broken” by the decision. > When reflecting on his decision just over one year later, (38) Truman wrote that he had “no qualms about it whatever,” (39) and that he had not lost a wink of sleep over the decision. (40) - [SOURCE](https://law-journals-books.vlex.com/vid/power-and-proportionality-the-839548504) ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/50 "2025-08-10T18:55:31Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > a navel captain Damn. Sure thought I had typed that correctly. 😲 ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/51 "2025-08-10T19:02:36Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > IIRC Truman was disturbed by the total destruction (same as most people would be) but never wavered from the need to have used the atomic bombs on Japan. He certainly never seemed “broken” by the decision. Truman’s involvement in the decision was, more or less: - He was aware of the atomic bomb development. - He chose not to interfere with pre-existing bomb plans. - He was less of a “decider” than a tacit approver, though it wouldn’t have proceeded if Truman had wanted it stopped. - Truman didn’t order the dropping of the bomb, the military commanders issued the order. - After the bombings, Truman did order the cease-fire (with regard to atom bombs only). - While Truman was affected by civilian casualties, and this factored into his decision to halt bombing, the nuclear ceasefire was driven more from the belief that the bombings had achieved their military and political purposes, and there was no appetite to continue fighting past the end of a war that was obviously all over except for the paperwork. - Truman regretted the civilian casualties, but he never regretted allowing the bombings to proceed. > **[Truman never ordered the use of the atomic bombs—but he did order atomic...](https://thebulletin.org/2025/08/truman-never-ordered-the-use-of-the-atomic-bombs-but-he-did-order-atomic-bombings-to-be-stopped/)** > > On the 80th anniversaries of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, President Truman deserves credit for the first use of the atomic bomb in war. But he also deserves some credit for the fact that atomic bombs have not been used in that way since.... ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/52 "2025-08-10T19:05:03Z")
ETA: this sat in my drafts folder for ~4 hours before I got back to finish it. So it may be a little out of sequence for where the convo has since gone. > [@griffin1977](#): > > > [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > > > The “Unjustified” side of this argument leaves out the deaths being caused by the Japanese in their occupied territories > > I don’t see the logic here. If the nuclear bombing was not justified, as in it made no difference at in the Japanese decision to surrender, why would the terrible atrocities in Japanese occupied territory factor into the equation? If they didn’t prevent the invasion of Japan they wouldn’t have shortened the Japanese occupation of the rest of Asia either. I can’t figure out what you’re trying to say. @Capn_Carl 's point was that the total cost of the war continuing was not only the Japanese and Americans to be killed in the prep for an invasion, and an invasion, and the resistance and … In addition to all that carnage, every day the war continued the Japanese were killing thousands of people in China and other countries too. All of that killing and dying would continue until the war was ended … somehow someday. Taking a war that probably had another 3 years to run and stopping it dead in its tracks in just a couple of weeks sure saved a lot of people. And even if, as some latter day historians believe, the Japanese were destined to surrender in exhaustion in, say, early 1946 before an invasion was mounted, the nukes still saved a lot of lives versus those spent. And notwithstanding @Der_Trihs misguided assertion it was all motivated by racial animus, the vast majority of the lives saved by the nukes were one or another kind of Asian, not American. The Americans had already demonstrated themselves quite content to kill Germans in great number at a time when an awful lot of Americans were 1st or 2nd generation offspring of German immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/53 "2025-08-10T19:07:11Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > He was less of a “decider” than a tacit approver, though it wouldn’t have proceeded if Truman had wanted it stopped. ISTM this is important and something Truman would have considered (whether or not to stop it). (As an aside…talk about timeliness for an article on history to be posted here…your cite beats all!) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/54 "2025-08-10T19:13:27Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The Americans had already demonstrated themselves quite content to kill Germans in great number at a time when an awful lot of Americans were 1st or 2nd generation offspring of German immigrants. But it is a reason the US was reluctant/slow to enter WWI or WWII. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/55 "2025-08-10T19:18:24Z")
Granted. We were slow to start but once involved there was neither killing nor sparing driven by systemic racism. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/56 "2025-08-10T20:00:03Z")
Also, after Nagasaki, they accepted the surrender the very next day. Another thing to consider is that although the nuclear strikes were extremely destructive, they weren’t even the most destructive or bloody single strikes on Japan _that year_. [The firebombing raids](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan)were worse in both ways, although they required more planes, more casualties, and more risk on the part of the US. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/57 "2025-08-10T20:01:09Z")
The time to debate the morality of a war is before it starts. Was it justified for the US to go to war with Japan after the attack on Pearl Harbor? However you answer that question, you’ve also answered the question about the use of nukes. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/58 "2025-08-10T20:07:56Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Also, after Nagasaki, they accepted the surrender the very next day. Nagasaki was bombed on August 9, 1945. The emperor formally surrendered on August 15, 1945. That coincided with an attempted coup to stop the Emperor. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/59 "2025-08-10T20:35:58Z")
I’ve told this story before, but perhaps not here. On the banks of the Sumida River in Tokyo is a park. I was headed from Senso-ji to the Tokyo Skytree on a hot day in early September 2019 and had decided to walk, and wound up taking a break in said park. In the park is an altar which of course caught my interest. “Why is there such an altar in a public place?” I asked myself and it was clearly being tended, with offerings of food and incense. One Google Translate of the sign above the altar later and I knew that it was dedicated to the dead of Operation Meetinghouse, though of course the Japanese text didn’t call it that, which made sense as I was in Asakusa. So I took a minute, despite not having anything to offer of my own, and thought about those who lived and died in that raid, nearly 75 years later. I haven’t made it to Hiroshima or Nagasaki yet, though I’d like to, to add it to my time spent in Los Alamos and the Trinity Site. And I’m sure at times I’ll be as somber there as well, just like I was suddenly on the banks of the Sumida, like I have been at sites like Dachau. I’m from New Mexico. The history of the bomb, the barbarity of the Japanese in WWII (we still remember Bataan), the effects of the Trinity test and uranium mining and weapons production are still known and dealt with in this state. War is hell, Sherman was right about that. But so was Patton, that you win a war by making the other poor bastard die for his country. All the atomic bombs were, especially the first fission devices, were really more efficient ways to continue the total war. As far as I’m concerned it ended it faster, and thousands or millions who might have died throughout Asia lived. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901/60 "2025-08-10T20:38:00Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > And notwithstanding @Der_Trihs misguided assertion it was all motivated by racial animus, the vast majority of the lives saved by the nukes were one or another kind of Asian, not American. > > The Americans had already demonstrated themselves quite content to kill Germans in great number at a time when an awful lot of Americans were 1st or 2nd generation offspring of German immigrants. Worth noting that the A-bomb was intended for Germany, and an atomic bombing plan for Germany actually existed which would’ve dropped atom bombs on up to 70 German cities. Germany would be defeated by the A-bombs, and Japan would be cowed into surrendering. Of course things didn’t work out that way, Germany surrendered, yet Japan did not. Plans were revised accordingly. Yes there was racial animus against Japan. No, it didn’t really factor into the A-bomb plans, which were a pastiche of military necessity, desire to realize the substantial investment in the Manhattan project, desire to test and understand the effects of the weapon, desire to deter a very dangerous and relentlessly expansionary USSR, and as much as anything, a vengeful fury against Japan for the treacherous sneak attack and immensely costly war that proceeded from it. If all those factors are weighed together, racial animus need not be invoked at all, and to the extent that it existed, its influence was negligible compared to other factors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-use-of-the-atomic-bomb-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-was-it-justified/1021901.md?page=4)