# The USPS closes.  What will be the result?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [September 5, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295 "2011-09-05T18:24:05Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 5

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**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/81 "2011-09-06T17:50:52Z")

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> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> Did you read anything on the first page of this thread?

Yes, I did.

Did you read the linked article about how the Postal Service had a large surplus fund? And that Congress took the surplus fund off the Postal Service’s books? And now declares the Postal Service is broke? I’d be broke too if you took all the money in my checking and savings account - and I’d be pretty annoyed at you if you took all my money I’d been saving for years and then declared that my lack of money was a sign that I was financially irresponsible.

And did you read the part about how competing services like FedEx and UPS use the Postal Service to deliver the packages they can’t profitably deliver themselves? Which means that if the Postal Service stops delivering these packages, so will FedEx and UPS.

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**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/82 "2011-09-06T17:51:20Z")

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I really can’t see any reason that I, personally, need the US Postal System to continue to exist at all. With a few easy changes I can do without all the paper bills and mailing of paper checks and switch it all to electronic banking. Many of my bills are already paid this way. For companies that are not set up for e-banking, well, if that is the only way you are getting paid you will quickly set it up.

At my former job we switched to electronic check deposit many years ago. We would still get new employees who wanted a paper check. We would tell them that we will print checks for only 2 pay periods, by the end of that time you would have a checking account for electronic deposit, or you wouldn’t need to get paid because you wouldn’t be working there.

Junk mail I can certainly do without. What else do I need to get in the mail? The IRS ceased even mailing out income tax forms last year. If my wife’s presciption drugs don’t get delivered in a timely and cheap manner, we go back to the pharmacy.

Purchases that sometimes come in the mail and sometimes by parcel delivery will still come and at an affordable price. If the cost of delivery increases too much for the consumer they will revert to shopping at actual physical stores and the internet retail model falls apart. And that certainly will not be allowed to happen. The internet business’ will not cede sales back to brick and mortar stores.

The whole idea that physical mail for 44 cents a letter is needed, or even desirable is horse and buggy thinking.

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**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/83 "2011-09-06T17:53:47Z")

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> [@wmfellows](#):
>
> Well, I read that in USA rural internet is not the rule, and I rather suspect, given my impression of domestic politics, that this would be an area of prime cutting.

I would be surprised if \< 50% of rural residence have internet access. And the government doesn’t provide it, so it couldn’t cut it.

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**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/84 "2011-09-06T17:56:03Z")

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> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> Only a fraction of the people living in these areas need the assistance.

How did you arrive a this conclusion? The populations of Alaska and Hawaii would disagree.

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**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/85 "2011-09-06T18:07:11Z")

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> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> I would be surprised if \< 50% of rural residence have internet access. And the government doesn’t provide it, so it couldn’t cut it.

Boy, I’d doubt that, Mace. During the last seven+ years I lived in a rural area in southeastern Ohio. Any form of broadband was only available in three of the towns. The rest of the county got by on satellite DSL (which is slow, I’ve had it) or dial up if a local company set it up. The county government was looking at installing wireless systems in cell phone towers to provide broadband to all households for about $50 per month per household. It wouldn’t be the 25Mbps I have here outside Charleston, SC but it would be better than anything currently available to those people.

For that matter, I had the same problem when I lived in Loudoun County, VA from 1997-2004. Just 70 miles outside of Washington DC and less than 30 miles away from the vast Internet hub of Northern Virginia (home to WorldCom, AOL, and others) I couldn’t get broadband at all. That’s while I connected through a Hughes bird and Direcway with a top d/l of about 180Kps.

If I had that problem right on top of what was essentially Internet central what would someone in Gillette Wyoming have available for them.

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**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/86 "2011-09-06T18:10:00Z")

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> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> I would be surprised if \< 50% of rural residence have internet access. And the government doesn’t provide it, so it couldn’t cut it.

“Having Internet access” covers a lot of ground. I think about 70% – geographically, not population – of my county does not have access to DSL or cable. Their choices are dialup, satellite, cellphone and commercial WiFi, and the latter two aren’t available everywhere. The cost of all of those alternatives is much higher than Internet access in the big city.

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**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/87 "2011-09-06T18:18:50Z")

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It certainly would suck for my Netflix account.

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**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/88 "2011-09-06T18:24:33Z")

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> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> I would be surprised if \< 50% of rural residence have internet access. And the government doesn’t provide it, so it couldn’t cut it.

I meant delivery subsidy assistance, not rural internet.

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**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/89 "2011-09-06T18:32:49Z")

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> [@wmfellows](#):
>
> That sounds like a perfectly stupid idea. Roll back your postal system to some 1950s set up?
> 
> It would rather make more sense to diversify the Post as most European and indeed OECD nations have done. Some degree of cross-subsidy for the “social service” side of the postal system for the poor is demonstrably sustainable in other OECD countries.
> 
> Not that Americans would ever bother to study other OECD nations, US exceptionalism and all that.

Considered and rejected. I lived in Europe for a year and there is one advantage there that is decidedly not available in America. Proximity of rural residences to villages and public transportation. The post office as franchise in convenience store that works in Europe would likely leave a lot of rural America under served.

No need to roll back to the 1950’s as the newly nationalized postal service would have modern vehicle fleets and logistics available.

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**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/90 "2011-09-06T18:41:52Z")

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> [@Hbns](#):
>
> Considered and rejected. I lived in Europe for a year and there is one advantage there that is decidedly not available in America. Proximity of rural residences to villages and public transportation. The post office as franchise in convenience store that works in Europe would likely leave a lot of rural America under served.
> 
> No need to roll back to the 1950’s as the newly nationalized postal service would have modern vehicle fleets and logistics available.

Europe and OECD are not synonyms. But not surprised…

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**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/91 "2011-09-06T18:46:44Z")

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> [@wmfellows](#):
>
> Europe and OECD are not synonyms. But not surprised…

Must you always have the bitter beer face?

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**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/92 "2011-09-06T18:47:19Z")

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I heard on Hartmann that during Bush, they passed legislation forcing the Post Office to contribute 5 billion a year into a pension fund. It is way over the top . They are trying to recover some of that pool.  
The plan of course was to bust the post office so it could be privatized.  
They don’t care about rural delivery. They will dump it is the street and have the town dwellers sort it out and pick it out for themselves.

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**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/93 "2011-09-06T19:02:41Z")

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> [@Musicat](#):
>
> “Having Internet access” covers a lot of ground.

Big nitpick: let’s separate “internet access” from “broadband internet access”.

I don’t doubt more than 50% have access to some kind of internet connection, but I wouldn’t put 50% as a lower bound on broadband access.

It’s a couple years old and really only covers farms, but this [report](http://www.dailyyonder.com/broadband-connection-highs-and-lows-across-rural-america/2009/02/11/1921) seems to indicate 50% is an overestimate for broadband access, at least for a national average.

This is, after all, a country where there are towns in rural Louisiana that have cell phone service but no land line telephones. And even a few towns where you probably wouldn’t even get the cell phone signal.

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**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/94 "2011-09-06T19:07:04Z")

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> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> … if the Postal Service stops delivering these packages, so will FedEx and UPS.

Seems unlikely - they’ll probably set a change that allows them to cover the cost of delivery.

The current system makes sense for both FedEx/UPS and the USPS: the former save money, the latter gets increased business on routes they are covering anyway.

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**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/95 "2011-09-06T19:19:52Z")

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It looks like some of the postal delivery has been contracted out and the letter carrier unions are not happy about it.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter\_carrier#United\_States](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_carrier#United_States)

[http://www.postalemployeenetwork.com/contracting-mail-delivery.htm](http://www.postalemployeenetwork.com/contracting-mail-delivery.htm)

The key term is **Highway Contract Route**.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/96 "2011-09-06T20:44:59Z")

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> [@Xema](#):
>
> Seems unlikely - they’ll probably set a change that allows them to cover the cost of delivery.
> 
> The current system makes sense for both FedEx/UPS and the USPS: the former save money, the latter gets increased business on routes they are covering anyway.

It doesn’t make sense for the Postal Service. They’re obligated to deliver on all routes - some deliveries cost them ten cents and some deliveries cost them ten dollars. But they average out the costs and charge a flat rate for all deliveries.

Here’s a theoretical model: Let’s let’s say a million letters get mailed in New York each day and that half of them are going to a destination in New York and the other half are going to a destination in Los Angeles. And let’s say it costs ten cents to deliver within New York and a dollar to deliver a letter across country.

Now the post office has to deliver all letters. So they take stock of the 500,000 letters be delivered to New York at ten cents apiece and the 500,000 letters being delivered to Los Angeles at a dollar apiece. They calculate that they are going to deliver a million letters at a total cost of $550,000 so they charge fifty-five cents for each letter.

Now Fed-Ex comes along. They start offering to deliver letters within New York for only twenty-five cents. The people mailing letter within New York all switch to Fed-Ex - so Fed-Ex is now delivering 500,000 letters a day with New York at a cost of $50,000 and is getting paid $125,000. The post office is delivering 500,000 letters a day from New York to Los Angeles at a cost of $500,000 and is getting paid $275,000.

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**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/97 "2011-09-06T21:32:21Z")

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This thread has been fascinating in how there are some posters who seem utterly unable or unwilling to believe that there are those who live differently than they do. “I don’t care if the post office delivers to rural areas. I live in a big city.” :rolleyes: Does it not occur to anyone that we have any shared needs any more?

I live in a town of ~5000 people. The local city-owned electric utility charges $1.25 for electronic payments via their own website. However, one must have a bank account in order to access the service. Some people do not have bank accounts and pay all their bills via money orders (coincidentally also available at the post office). But, hey, to hell with them, I guess.

Rural electrification, I think, is illustrative here. It was not until cooperatives were formed (right here in Texas, thankyouverymuch) that rural areas were able to get electricity. This was right up into the 1950’s, long after urban areas had lights for decades. It took government intervention to bring electricity to rural areas. Rich/poor didn’t even have anything to do with it. It simply wasn’t profitable for commercial interests to run wire out to sparsely populated areas. So, they sat in the dark.

Now, some in this thread say that sparsely populated areas should just learn to live with no mail service. Thanks a lot. I pay taxes too, you know.

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**Author:** ![strugglingChristian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@strugglingChristian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/strugglingChristian)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/98 "2011-09-06T21:36:05Z")

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The result will be no more junk mail. And just the fact that this competes fairly in my mind with all the positive things the postal service does goes to show how pernicious this jm problem is.

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**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/99 "2011-09-06T21:36:38Z")

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> [@Drum\_God](#):
>
> This thread has been fascinating in how there are some posters who seem utterly unable or unwilling to believe that there are those who live differently than they do. “I don’t care if the post office delivers to rural areas. I live in a big city.” :rolleyes: Does it not occur to anyone that we have any shared needs any more?
> 
> I live in a town of ~5000 people. The local city-owned electric utility charges $1.25 for electronic payments via their own website. However, one must have a bank account in order to access the service. Some people do not have bank accounts and pay all their bills via money orders (coincidentally also available at the post office). But, hey, to hell with them, I guess.
> 
> Rural electrification, I think, is illustrative here. It was not until cooperatives were formed (right here in Texas, thankyouverymuch) that rural areas were able to get electricity. This was right up into the 1950’s, long after urban areas had lights for decades. It took government intervention to bring electricity to rural areas. Rich/poor didn’t even have anything to do with it. It simply wasn’t profitable for commercial interests to run wire out to sparsely populated areas. So, they sat in the dark.
> 
> Now, some in this thread say that sparsely populated areas should just learn to live with no mail service. Thanks a lot. I pay taxes too, you know.

Can you quote the post where someone said that “sparsely populated areas should just learn to live with no mail service”?

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**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-usps-closes-what-will-be-the-result/595295/100 "2011-09-06T21:57:04Z")

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So the USPO is dying-does that mean we should keep it alive? When Henry Ford came out with the Model T, did the government bail out the buggy manufacturers?  
Change or die.

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