# The USS Liberty and Conspiracy Theories **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2009, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101 "2009-07-15T12:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/141 "2009-07-16T17:38:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I can. > > Pretty sure I could come up with more. > > Clearly a loony conspiracy theory bunch if ever there was one. :rolleyes: I haven’t the time to research all of this, but on its face the first cite you provide is problematic. > [@](#): > > I had no role in the board of inquiry that followed, or the board’s finding that there could be no doubt that the Israeli’s knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty. I have yet to understand why it was felt necessary to attack this ship or who ordered the attack. As far as I know, no board of inquiry has ever made the “finding” that “… there could be no doubt that the Israeli’s knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty”. Yet Mr. Helms is seemingly basing his opinion on that very finding. Perhaps I am mistaken. Is there such a “finding”? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/142 "2009-07-16T17:41:52Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > All these people alleged and remain(ed) convinced of a conspiracy and coverup? > > Could you provide a citation to that effect? First notice the bait and switch: most of the quotes simply say that they don’t buy Israeli claims of non-malice, very few even hint at the coverup and conspiracy that would have had to go on in our own military, intelligence services and government. And, heh, just check out some of those tinfoil hatters. America didn’t have the “courage” to deal with Israel? Not enough courage, is that a joke? I guess we were terrified of the Zionist Menace. A claim that the NSA didn’t dispute that it was deliberate despite their report which said exactly that, that it wasn’t deliberate. And of course we have Mole, yet again, citing Boston’s fiction about Kidd (that lucky he only voiced once Kidd just happened to be dead) that I’ve debunked several times. I’m not going to comb through the rest. ~shrugs~ This, by the way, is[what Kidd actually thought](http://www.thelibertyincident.com/kidd.html)despite Boston’s lies. This, by the way, is the record of [actual official correspondence.](http://www.thelibertyincident.com/officialcorrespondence.html) But of course, we’re still on the appeal to authority fallacy, and _it still makes no sense_ as we’ve got the Genius Dunderhead Conspiracy, yet again. > [@Malthus](#): > > It tells us that a _deliberate and pre-meditated attempt to sink a US ship_ is unlikely. . Not to mention the fact that they weren’t armed with anti-ship weaponry at all. This conspiracy theory fails just as many do, the conspirators both have to be utterly brilliant and powerful (and know for sure that attacking a superpower with well marked planes/boats and leaving survivors alive won’t bite them in the ass) but also comically stupid not to know that when you’re attacking a ship you use anti-ship weaponry. It’s the evil government conspiracy that is smart enough to secretly rig the entire WTC with explosives while nobody notices but then stupid enough to fly planes into it on live national TV instead of just detonating the explosives and saying terrorists did it. > [@Algher](#): > > Yes, and those pilots were tried in a military courtroom. It was a well known incident, and the pilots ADMITTED to purposely targeting that ship. Cite? [I read](http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-2470698/From-Thunderbird-to-Thud-Ridge.html) that they were found not guilty and there ended up being confusion as to who exactly shot the Russians. Was that cite wrong? > [@Algher](#): > > Now - are you claiming that Israeli pilots did not undergo ship recognition exercises as part of their training? Nope. I’m saying that some were reservists without much experience, that the battle shifted quickly and dramatically and that the fog of war was in full effect. Are you confident, for example, that all reservists would’ve been able [to ID each of these](http://www.thelibertyincident.com/docs/one-stackerchart.pdf)? > [@Algher](#): > > We must have had the dumbest Israeli squadron (and torpedo b]zoats) in the history of Israels military operating that day. The torp boats, in fact, didn’t fire and tried to confirm that the ship was in fact friendly, they were then fired upon and/or had round on the deck cook off which made them think they were being fired on. If you think a ship may be friendly and then it shoots at you it’s generally a good bet that it aint friendly. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/143 "2009-07-16T17:44:30Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Perhaps I am mistaken. Is there such a “finding”? No. It’s more fiction. Not one American investigation ever found anything of the sort. But it _sounds_ impressive, so you can bet that it’ll be reposted by someone sooner or later. And this is the problem with this scattershot game of whack a mole we’re playing. Boston lies about Kidd? It gets debunked. It’ll get posted later. Someone else lies about an investigation? It’ll get posted later. It’s like throwing enough shit at the wall in the hope that _something_ will stick. And having it shown that there are numerous lies and liars who the conspiracy theory is based on will do nothing, they’ll just be reposted. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/144 "2009-07-16T17:44:58Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Fair enough. The second and third incidents are not large ships; obviously PT boats and submarines would be more difficult to identify than a large ship like the Liberty. In the first case, even under full moonlight visibility wouldn’t have been nearly as good as the broad daylight of the Liberty attack; the attack took place at around 2pm. Obviously the fact that the flotilla opened fire first makes a huge difference as well. Ok, what about the USS Peary, a destroyer, which was attacked in early evening? It was bombed by three Lockheed Hudson bombers off the coast of the Philippines. True, it was early evening, so the visibility probably wasn’t as good in in the case of the Liberty incident, but I think you’re being overly discriminating here. Friendly fire incidents are actually quite common, and if you didn’t restrict this to just cases where ships were bombed by friendly or neutral forces, I could come up with many more. Planes bomb ships, ships shoot at other friendly ships, planes bomb friendly troops, and troops fire at each other and at friendly planes. These all come from misidentification due to keyed up nerves in a stressful situation. As you said, it’s possible the Lebrecht Maas wouldn’t have been bombed had it not begun shooting at the plane, but remember, that was itself a friendly fire incident due to misidentification. A Heinkel bomber doesn’t look anything like a British scout plane. People make mistakes-sometimes mistakes that have horrible consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/145 "2009-07-16T17:49:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No. > It’s more fiction. > Not one American investigation ever found anything of the sort. > > But it _sounds_ impressive, so you can bet that it’ll be reposted by someone sooner or later. I don’t understand why anyone would make an argument from authority, when the authority at issue is making a glaring and obvious factual error on the face of his statement on which he’s clearly basing his opinion. Am I misreading the quote somehow? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/146 "2009-07-16T17:52:53Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > As far as I know, no board of inquiry has ever made the “finding” that “… there could be no doubt that the Israeli’s knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty”. Yet Mr. Helms is seemingly basing his opinion on that very finding. > > Perhaps I am mistaken. Is there such a “finding”? This is the best I can find on that: > [@](#): > > Writing in his memoirs, Richard Helms, the Director of Central Intelligence at the time of the attack, explained that the Central Intelligence Agency undertook a “final” investigation after more evidence became available, and he offered the following information concerning the CIA’s final finding:[44] > > “Israeli authorities subsequently apologized for the incident, but few in Washington could believe that the ship had not been identified as an American naval vessel. Later, an interim intelligence memorandum concluded the attack was a mistake and not made in malice against the U.S. . . .I had no role in the board of inquiry that followed, or the board’s finding that there could be no doubt that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty. I have yet to understand why it was felt necessary to attack this ship or who ordered the attack.” > > SOURCE: [http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm](http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm) The quote is cited often though and clearly he did not feel the attack was an accident. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/147 "2009-07-16T17:56:12Z")
Oh, and interestingly, a day before the attack on the Liberty, Israeli planes mistook an Israeli armor column in the Sinai for an Egyptian one and bombed that. So you even had a related friendly fire incident in the Six Day War. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/148 "2009-07-16T17:57:02Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t understand why anyone would make an argument from authority, when the authority at issue is making a glaring and obvious factual error on the face of his statement on which he’s clearly basing his opinion. > > Am I misreading the quote somehow? Try this: > [@](#): > > CIA report of June 13, 1967: This interim report, completed five days after the attack, reported “our best judgment [is] that the attack…was a mistake.” No investigation was conducted, and no first-hand evidence was collected. Then-CIA Director Richard Helms later reported in his autobiography that the still-classified final CIA report found that the attack was planned and deliberate - a fact ignored by Mr. Cristol. > > SOURCE: [http://usslibertyinquiry.com/arguments/american/investigations.html](http://usslibertyinquiry.com/arguments/american/investigations.html) So, it is still a classified report so we cannot read it for ourselves. Apparently they came to the conclusion Helms’ referenced. Is Helms a liar? What about all the other quotes? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/149 "2009-07-16T17:58:47Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Now - are you claiming that Israeli pilots did not undergo ship recognition exercises as part of their training? That is fairly standard training for pilots. I grew up playing poker with ship and plane recognition cards from WWII, Korea and Vietnam and had my own deck in the 80s. The Naval Institute Proceedings issue has comments from US Pilots regarding how poorly it would look for a US pilot to claim to hit an Egyptian freighter when the ship was a US spy ship. US spy ships have a very distinct profile, the antennas and dish are very prominent, the coloration, bow and flag are noticeable as well. Different militaries, different priorities. Pilots undergo extensive ship identification training when their country and their enemies’ posses significant navies, and warfare takes place overseas. Israel’s enemies at the time were right across the border, and neither side had anything more formidable than a destroyer, if that. Naval warfare, I’m sorry to say, isn’t much more than a footnote to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Add to that the fact that this was something like the third day of the war, and the pilots had been flying an average of seven sorties a day - a world record, incidentally - with very little down time, mistakes were not just likely, they were probable. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/150 "2009-07-16T18:05:05Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > All these people alleged and remain(ed) convinced of a conspiracy and coverup? > > Could you provide a citation to that effect? > [@](#): > > The attack “couldn’t be anything else but deliberate,” the NSA’s director, Lt. Gen. Marshall Carter, later told Congress. [link](http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/printedition/tuesday/chi-liberty_tuesoct02,0,1050179.story?page=2) > [@](#): > > In 2002, the late Richard Helms, then director of Central Intelligence, finally added his authoritative voice to the “deliberates,” telling the Navy Times the attack was “no mistake.” > **[San Diego Union-Tribune](https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/)** > > San Diego, California and National News There are numerous other high level officials quoted in those two articles. It’s clear that they reject the explanation that this attack was an accident, and believe that Israel intentional attacked the ship. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/151 "2009-07-16T18:16:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Different militaries, different priorities. > > Pilots undergo extensive ship identification training when their country and their enemies’ posses significant navies, and warfare takes place overseas. Israel’s enemies at the time were right across the border, and neither side had anything more formidable than a destroyer, if that. Naval warfare, I’m sorry to say, isn’t much more than a footnote to the Arab-Israeli conflict. > > Add to that the fact that this was something like the third day of the war, and the pilots had been flying an average of seven sorties a day - a world record, incidentally - with very little down time, mistakes were not just likely, they were probable. To my knowledge the attack pilots did not recon the Liberty. They flew in and attacked straight away (this was talked about up thread). The Liberty however was overflown by recon planes many times in the hours leading up to the attack. Some coming down so close enough to “[rattle the deck plates](http://blog.usni.org/?p=3249)”. Supposedly getting so close the Liberty crew and recon pilots waved at each other. Israel has plenty of coastline. Betting the recon flights are trained to identify ships. Kinda their job afterall. Not to mention the Liberty was a one-of-a-kind ship back then (well, there were two, Liberty had an identical sister ship also run by the US Navy). Satellites were a newish thing back then. The 16’ satellite dish stick waaay up on the back of the Liberty is hard to miss. Kind of distinctive. I strains credulity to suppose eight recon flights misidentified the Liberty. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/152 "2009-07-16T18:27:30Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yet **Whack-a-Mole** is busy presenting evidence that Israeli pilots were not in on the conspiracy and were, allegedly, arrested for (correctly) identifying the boat as US and refusing to attack it. > > I’ll ask you the same question I asked him - are you of the opinion that the pilots were “in on” the plan to attack a US ship deliberately, or were they being duped by the plotters? I don’t know. I view this one the way I look at most “conspiracy” claims - are there questions that are not sufficiently answered by the official reports? In this case, I have problems with the official report of “it was all just a big accident.” That was one hell of a multi-wave assault on a US ship to be an accident. My personal issues are around ship ID claims, because they do not fit my experience and the experience of combat pilots from that era that I have spoken to. The Liberty site I linked to does a good (though ugly as sin) job of presenting their side, and there are a few books out there that cover the story as well. Without the gun camera film or interview with the Israeli military - I doubt we will ever get the full story. For now we have to depend on the partial reports and the statements of the US military survivors of the attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/153 "2009-07-16T18:35:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Cite? > [I read](http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-2470698/From-Thunderbird-to-Thud-Ridge.html) that they were found not guilty and there ended up being confusion as to who exactly shot the Russians. Was that cite wrong? My fault (working from memory instead of checking). Broughton burned the gun camera film so that his pilots could not be tried. Broughton himself was court martialed for destruction of government property, though later that was set aside. He then retired to write Thud Ridge and Going Downtown (great books, btw). I was trying to remember the chain of events from reading Going Downtown years ago. In context for this discussion - who is the Israeli Broughton court martialed for the assault? Who are the pilots tried for their role in the attack? ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/154 "2009-07-16T18:35:24Z")
BTW here is an [article](http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070608/news_lz1e8boston.html)by Ward Boston who served as the Chief Counsel in the Navy Enquiry about the Liberty incident: > [@](#): > > Israel claimed it was an accident. Yet I know from personal conversations with the late Adm. Isaac C. Kidd – president of the Court of Inquiry – that President Lyndon Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ordered him to conclude that the attack was a case of “mistaken identity.” > [@](#): > > For decades, I have remained silent. I am a military man, and when orders come in from the secretary of defense and president of the United States, I follow them. However, attempts to rewrite history and concern for my country compel me to share the truth. > > Adm. Kidd and I were given only one week to gather evidence for the Navy’s official investigation, though we both estimated that a proper Court of Inquiry would take at least six months. > > We boarded the crippled ship at sea and interviewed survivors. The evidence was clear. We both believed with certainty that this attack was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. > [@](#): > > Adm. Kidd told me that after receiving the president’s cover-up orders, he was instructed to sit down with two civilians from either the White House or the Department of Defense and rewrite portions of the court’s findings. He said, “Ward, they’re not interested in the facts. It’s a political matter, and we cannot talk about it.” We were to “put a lid on it” and caution everyone involved never to speak of it again. > > I know that the Court of Inquiry transcript that has been released to the public is not the same one that I certified and sent to Washington. I know this because it was necessary, due to the exigencies of time, to hand-correct and initial a substantial number of pages. I have examined the released version of the transcript and did not see any pages that bore my hand corrections and initials. Also, the original did not have any deliberately blank pages, as the released version does. In addition, the testimony of Lt. Lloyd Painter concerning the deliberate machine-gunning of the life rafts by the Israeli torpedo boat crews, which I distinctly recall being given at the Court of Inquiry and including in the original transcript, is now missing. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/155 "2009-07-16T18:36:16Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Try this: > > So, it is still a classified report so we cannot read it for ourselves. Apparently they came to the conclusion Helms’ referenced. > > Is Helms a liar? > > What about all the other quotes? Interestingly, your cite has no hesitation in labelling the Pesident of the United States and the secretary of Defense as “liars” and worse: > [@](#): > > How, one might ask, could one inquire into all of the circumstances without hearing from the attacking nation? In fact, the court did neither. According to Captain Ward Boston, chief legal counsel to the Court of Inquiry, the court found that the attack was deliberate, but reported falsely that it was not because they were directed by the president of the United States and the secretary of defense to report falsely. So the findings are fraudulent. Myself, I think there is no need to conclude that the people quoted are “liars”, since in most cases the quotes are nothing more than expressions of incredulity, with nothing more to back them up. For example: > [@](#): > > “The highest officials of the [Johnson] administration, including the President, believed it ‘inconceivable’ that Israel’s ‘skilled’ defense forces could have committed such a gross error.” This is an opinion premised on the alleged skills of the Israeli Defense Force - one wonders how these sampe people reacted to (say) the Israelis being caught napping in '73! Extrapolating from an overall opinion of competence to allege that an accident _could not_ have happened strikes me as highly unwise under any circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/156 "2009-07-16T18:46:11Z")
Lantern, wtf? It wasn’t even a dozen posts up where it was proven (yet again) that Boston is lying about Kidd. Why have you yet again reposted it, along with the inane suggestion that the Navy’s report was changed and nobody, not even the people whose testimony was changed noticed or spoke up for 36 years? > [@Malthus](#): > > Am I misreading the quote somehow? Evidently now it’s morphed into a claim that someone who by his own admission was violating classified secrets was also telling the truth about them, but (what luck!) nobody else would discuss them and they weren’t public record. But of course the CIA itself has never supported such a claim. And of course this brings us back to a dastardly conspiracy whereby even the CIA has been infiltrated by those tricky Zionists and refuses to speak the truth. It should also probably be noted that Helms was a proven liar (caught lying to Congress about CIA activities) for which he received a suspended two year prison sentence. He was also close with the Shah and his support for him later landed him a position as ambassador. We should trust whatever he says about secret CIA investigations and political judgments, though. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/157 "2009-07-16T18:49:53Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I don’t know. I view this one the way I look at most “conspiracy” claims - are there questions that are not sufficiently answered by the official reports? > > In this case, I have problems with the official report of “it was all just a big accident.” That was one hell of a multi-wave assault on a US ship to be an accident. My personal issues are around ship ID claims, because they do not fit my experience and the experience of combat pilots from that era that I have spoken to. > > The Liberty site I linked to does a good (though ugly as sin) job of presenting their side, and there are a few books out there that cover the story as well. > > Without the gun camera film or interview with the Israeli military - I doubt we will ever get the full story. For now we have to depend on the partial reports and the statements of the US military survivors of the attacks. My approach to such claims is to ask whether the participants had anything to gain worth the risk, and to attempt to put myself in the shoes of the plotters and reason how they intended to go about it successfully. In this case, the conspiracy fails the test of logic. Logically, either the conspirators informed the pilots of the identity of the target - or they did not; it has to be one or the other. If the conspirators informed the pilots of the target in advance, the evidence that the pilots questioned the identity of the Liberty and that at least one refused to attack it (and was arrested for so doing) must be false. We can in fact rule out any radio traffic allegedly questioning or confirming the target, since the pilots would gave no reason to do either. On the other hand, if the conspirators did _not_ inform the pilots, the plan makes no sense - if the Liberty was in fact distinctive. In that case, the conspirators were relying on the pilots to attack what was _obviously_ a US ship, in broad daylight, without question. Would combat pilots you have spoken to attacked an obviously friendly or neutral target, just because home base identified it as a target? Allegedly, the Israelis knew already that the Liberty was distinctive, through over-flights. In either case, the existence of a conspiracy would require someone to have either acted quite irrationally (in the case of not informing the pilots), or there must be fabricated pro-conspiracy evidence (in the case of informing the pilots), or some of the main assumptions (i.e., that the ship was easy to identify) must be wrong. Given this, the logical conclusion is that it was no conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/158 "2009-07-16T18:54:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Interestingly, your cite has no hesitation in labelling the Pesident of the United States and the secretary of Defense as “liars” and worse: Lots of people called Johnson a liar about this (or effectively a liar). We have Captain Boston alleging Johnson ordered a coverup to Admiral Kidd. We have undisputed evidence that McNamara and then Johnson himself recalled the sorties sent to save the Liberty. That by itself is shocking. Clearly Johnson was willing to sacrifice all those sailors presumably for some realpolitik purpose we will never know. Obviously others would be in on the coverup so the “official” investigation that is public is decidedly in question. We then have a “final” CIA report which Helms implies finds that Israel did this as a pre-meditated attack. Of course we cannot assess that assertion since it is a secret document. One has to wonder though why it is secret? If it backed up the official report I cannot see a problem with releasing it. The only reason not to I can guess it so as to not inflame anti-Israel feelings. > [@](#): > > This is an opinion premised on the alleged skills of the Israeli Defense Force - one wonders how these sampe people reacted to (say) the Israelis being caught napping in '73! > > Extrapolating from an overall opinion of competence to allege that an accident _could not_ have happened strikes me as highly unwise under any circumstances. The IDF is certainly one of the most professional militaries on the planet. Are they infallible? Of course not. But they are damn good. I would guess when the President felt the Israelis did it on purpose he was not solely saying that because the IDF are professional but in conjunction with all the other stuff he knew. Anyway, it is a data point and one of many I cited which included a cite that the CIA/NSA think it is not a “mistake”. Circumstantial evidence is, well, circumstantial. However, enough of it can add up to convict someone (indeed in US courts most people are convicted on circumstantial evidence). I cited numerous highly placed government officials, many personally involved during the incident, and they are all of the opinion (basically) that this was not an accident. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/159 "2009-07-16T18:59:25Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Lantern, wtf? > It wasn’t even a dozen posts up where it was proven (yet again) that Boston is lying about Kidd. Why have you yet again reposted it, along with the inane suggestion that the Navy’s report was changed and nobody, not even the people whose testimony was changed noticed or spoke up for 36 years? I don’t think Kidd’s letter proves much; it’s quite vague really. At most the issue is Kidd’s relationship with Cristol. It’s quite possible that Kidd was perfectly polite to Cristol while attacking him in private. Who knows? I don’t see this as a reason to doubt Boston’s comments on the naval enquiry on which he served as chief counsel. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101/160 "2009-07-16T19:03:36Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Lots of people called Johnson a liar about this (or effectively a liar). We have Captain Boston alleging Johnson ordered a coverup to Admiral Kidd. We have undisputed evidence that McNamara and then Johnson himself recalling the sorties sent to save the Liberty. That by itself is shocking. Clearly Johnson was willing to sacrifice all those sailors presumably for some realpolitik purpose we will never know. > > Obviously others would be in on the coverup so the “official” investigation that is public is decidedly in question. We then have a “final” CIA report which Helms implies finds that Israel did this as a pre-meditated attack. Of course we cannot assess that assertion since it is a secret document. One has to wonder though why it is secret? If it backed up the official report I cannot see a problem with releasing it. The only reason not to I can guess it so as to not inflame anti-Israel feelings. That situation makes no sense. If the “fix was in” at the highest levels, what was the CIA doing conducting yet another investigation? Why would the President not order _them_ to STFU? Moreover, if the report is kept secret for important reasons of state, why is this CIA dude offhandedly referring to it in his autobiography? I for one cannot believe that a report of a more that 40 year old incident is kept secret to “avoid inflaming anti-Israel feelings”. > [@](#): > > The IDF is certainly one of the most professional militaries on the planet. Are they infallible? Of course not. But they are damn good. > > I would guess when the President felt the Israelis did it on purpose he was not solely saying that because the IDF are professional but in conjunction with all the other stuff he knew. > > Anyway, it is a data point and one of many I cited which included a cite that the CIA/NSA think it is not a “mistake”. > > Circumstantial evidence is, well, circumstantial. However, enough of it can add up to convict someone (indeed in US courts most people are convicted on circumstantial evidence). I cited numerous highly placed government officials, many personally involved during the incident, and they are all of the opinion (basically) that this was not an accident. However, that’s the reason the President allegedly gives (and the only one) for his incredulty - that they are damned good (my paraphrase) and so he doesn’t believe it could possibly be an accident. Such an opinion, seems to me, is worth about the breath used to expel it. Damn good or not, Israel has made plenty of military screw-ups. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-and-conspiracy-theories/503101.md?page=9)