# The USS Liberty-US and Israel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2001, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-us-and-israel/88323 "2001-10-19T00:10:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-us-and-israel/88323/21 "2001-10-19T21:30:08Z")
Yes, it’s right there at the mast head, just below the radome. It’s been blown around behind the mast, but is still quite discernable. If it were color, there’d be no doubt, as most of the rest of the ship is grey, excepting the hull numbers and radomes. Compare the Ensign to the bridge. You’ll see that it has a rise of about 8 feet, and a fly of about 12 feet. That’s huge. Considering that the US Ensign is one of the most recognizable flags on the planet, and is quite different from the [Egyptian flag](http://www.immigration-usa.com/wfb/egypt/egypt_flags.html), and further (something I failed to point out earlier), the USS Liberty is clearly lacking in offensive weaponry (even from grainy photo you can see that), it would require a truely _gifted_ indivdual to mistake it for the Egyptian ship the Israelis _claimed_ to have mistaken it for. ---
**Author:** ![Ned](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/848f3c/32.png) [@Ned](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ned)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-us-and-israel/88323/22 "2001-10-19T23:03:30Z")
The mistake explanation makes the most sense to me. The sequence of events sounds like a typical military screw. Warning the americans to keep out doesn’t sound plausible to me at all. Who knows why they couldn’t identify it. Following the initial attacks the ship was probably blanketed with black smoke. Following the bombing of civillians in Kosovo I saw pilots on the air swearing you couldn’t mistake a tractor, seems to have happened anyway. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-us-and-israel/88323/23 "2001-10-19T23:16:02Z")
There is another conjecture, rather chilling: the initial attack was in error. When the Isreali’s realized the error, they chose to **intensify** the attack in the hope of eliminating witnesses, and then blame the attack on someone else. Does anyone know at what point in time the _Liberty_ identified thier attackers as Israeli? And did they radio that information to others, or were they under “radio silence” rules? Frankly, I lean towards acquittal, if for no other reason than I am loathe to believe that the Israeli’s were **that** utterly ruthless. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-us-and-israel/88323/24 "2001-10-20T00:31:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > > \*\*What bothers me is that I never even heard of this in all my years in school. > > > > Hello, in World History, tenth grade, we heard all kinds of stuff that went on, all kinds of cover ups. Same in American History in eleventh grade. We heard everything-the good and the bad. But no mention of this.\*\* > > Well, in high school, I don’t think they ever taught me anything that happened after 1950. It wasn’t deliberate…it was just that it would be the beginning of June, and we’d be leisurely discussing WWII or something, then the teacher would realize “THERE ARE ONLY 2 DAYS TILL CLASSES END!”, and say something like, “AndthenthewarendedthenwefoughtinKoreaandthenVietnamthenWatergatehappenedandlaterReagangotelectedandthespaceshuttleblewupandhaveagoodsummer.” \*\* I always tried to explain this phenomenon to my wife about American schools and the sheer and utter stupidity of it always astounded her. You would think that it would be smarter to actually teach a history class back in time. I mean it’s good to know about what the Greeks did, but it’s criminal not to teach about modern history as it’s the most relevant to our daily lives. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-us-and-israel/88323/25 "2001-10-20T05:33:07Z")
I had not heard of this either. I like the idea of the upper echelon blunder. Generals have a lot of autonomy. Some paranoid Israeli commander might have just thought, “Bugger this, lets sink it.” on his own initiative. (It reminds me of some high-ranking French public servant on Devil’s Island or somewhere, when France was bombing Muaroa Atoll in the early 90s and denying Australians entry visas to France. The public servant told an Australian reporter that France considered Australia to be a hostile power. This was news to the rest of France. Same sort of thing might have happened here.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-us-and-israel/88323/26 "2001-10-20T06:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > > But why didn’t we ever learn about this? I only heard it mentioned last week at my professor’s, when he had us over for pizza-it was the day they started bombing Afghanistan, and he mentioned it, when we were talking about foreign policy. I also would suggest that in a historical context, this is a relatively minor incident with no consequence. Unless your study actually involved a comprehensive history of the six day war, there is no reason to discuss it. Anyone know how low these bombers flew over their targets circa 1967. I used to help spot yachts from planes, and it is conceivable to me that a flag might not be recognizable from the air. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-us-and-israel/88323/27 "2001-10-20T22:54:39Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=81173](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=81173) ---
**Author:** ![HairyPotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@HairyPotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HairyPotter)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-us-and-israel/88323/28 "2001-10-21T01:27:52Z")
I have always assumed that the U.S. has provided strong support for Israel, even in the face of atrocious Israeli acts, because U.S. politicians are incredibly easy to buy-off. The pro-Israeli lobbying groups in Washington certainly appear to be both very active and in-possession of deep-pockets. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-us-and-israel/88323/29 "2001-10-22T13:37:08Z")
75 minutes of constant attack, and they claim to not know who they were attacking? **Bull**. Another photo of the Liberty [here](http://208.56.153.48/g/0033.gif). Please note that even at this distance, the Ensign is quite discernable. This one is the Ensign flown at the begining of the attack. Mid-way through the attack, it was shot away, to be replaced by the much larger Holiday Colors. Photo of what they _claim_ to have mistaken the Liberty for, [here](http://208.56.153.48/g/elquseir.gif). From the “The Salans Report”, DEPARTMENT OF STATE, Office of The Legal Adviser (dated September 21, 1967) \ > [@](#): > > I. Speed and Direction of the “Liberty” > > The Israeli report indicates that the torpedo boat Division Commander reported and reconfirmed the target’s (Liberty’s) speed at 28 to 30 knots and that it had changed its navigational direction shortly after 1341 hours. > > The U.S. Navy inquiry established that the Liberty had been on a _steady course at 5 knots from 1132 hours until the attack_. > > II. Aircraft Surveillance > > The Israeli report indicates that a ship was reported in the area by reconnaissance aircraft at 0600 and that another report was received of a contact between an Israeli aircraft and a surface vessel about 0900. > > The Navy Court finding of facts, plus testimony of various members of the crew indicate _reconnaissance overflights of the Liberty at 0515, 0850, 1030, 1056, 1126, 1145, 1220, and 1245_. > > … > > V. Flag and Identification Markings > > The Israeli report indicates that the fighter aircraft which reportedly made an initial pass over the Liberty was looking for a flag but found none; likewise no other identification mark was observed. “…Throughout the contact no American or any other flag appeared on the ship…” _(Elsewhere the report had indicated that at 1055 the ship had been identified as the Liberty “whose marking was GTR-5.”)_\*\*\*\*\* \*\*\* Note: This means that as early as 10:55 am, the Israelis had _correctly_ identified the USS Liberty.\*\* Please note the contradiction of the official Israeli claims about the Ensign as the report continues: > [@](#): > > The Navy inquiry confirms by testimony of five members of the crew that they had personally observed the Ensign flying during the entire morning and up until the air attack. _The Ensign was subsequently shot away during the air attack. Before the torpedo attack, a second Ensign was hoisted. The Navy report also found that "hull markings were clear and freshly painted_." > > The Clifford report noted that “the Liberty’s U.S. Navy’s distinguishing letters and number were painted clearly on her bow. The Liberty’s name was clearly painted in English on her stern. _The ship’s configuration and her standard markings were clearly sufficient for reconnaissance > aircraft and waterborne vessels to identify her correctly_…” The report noted that at all times prior to the air attack the Liberty was flying her normal size American flag (5 ft. by 8 ft.) at the masthead. _Five minutes prior to the attack by the torpedo boats, the Liberty put up a flag measuring **7 ft. by 13 ft.** to replace the flag which had been shot down in the air attack_\*\*\*\*\*. - Allow me to pat myself on the back for a moment here… I’m by no means a photo interpreter, but from the grainy photo I first linked to, I guessed the flag to be 8’x12’. Pretty d\*mn close, and _I’m not a trained observer_. How is it that the highly competent Israeli military missed it? _Every_ pilot and _all_ crewmembers of the torpedo boats claimed to have missed it. Could it be that the flag’s presence & identity was immaterial to the task of the moment…? And most damning of all: > [@](#): > > The Clifford report noted “That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable. El Quseir has one-fourth the displacement of the Liberty, roughly one-half the beam, is 180 feet shorter, and is very differently configured. The Liberty’s unusual antenna array and hull markings should have been visible to low-flying aircraft and torpedo boats. …Trained Israeli naval personnel should have been able easily to see and identify the larger hull markings on the Liberty.” (see above posted links to photos for comparison) And still, the motive for the attack remains a mystery, despite wild and rampant speculation. This is one I don’t think we’ll ever understand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uss-liberty-us-and-israel/88323.md?page=1)