# The "V" sound in "StePHen" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 4, 2012, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672 "2012-10-04T10:15:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/1 "2012-10-04T10:15:37Z")
Hi I was wondering if the “V” sound of “PH” in Stephen is in any other words with a “PH” in them? ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/2 "2012-10-04T11:41:04Z")
And why doesn’t Stephanie follow the same phonetic rule? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/3 "2012-10-04T11:44:30Z")
Some British dialects say “nephew” with a v. That’s about all I got… ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/4 "2012-10-04T12:39:56Z")
Didn’t we just have a thread about this? I can’t think of any other words with “ph” that are pronounced as “v”, but there are plenty of words with “f” in them that changes to a “v” for plurals: elf ----------elves shelf --------shelves half-----------halves dwarf---------dwarves\* life------------lives \*shuit up, all you Tolkien fans. I know he used “dwarfs” and “dwerrows”. I’ve probably read LotR more often than you have. But he wasn’t thr arbiter of English. My real, non-Board name is “Stephen”, pronounced as with a “v”. When I asked about it as a kid, they told me it was just prounced that way. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/5 "2012-10-04T12:41:29Z")
Would you settle for an F pronounced that way? Because then you’ve got “of”. They’re very closely related sounds anyway-- V is just the voiced version of F. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/6 "2012-10-04T12:43:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*shuit up, all you Tolkien fans. I know he used “dwarfs” and “dwerrows”. I’ve probably read LotR more often than you have. But he wasn’t thr arbiter of English. Other way around. He later thought that he _should_ have used “dwerrow” and “dwerrows”, but what he actually _did_ use was “dwarf” and “dwarves”, when almost all other sources were using “dwarfs”. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/7 "2012-10-04T13:03:30Z")
In the case of the name “Stephen” being pronounced “Steven” (which is also an alternate and very common spelling), I think it’s a case where the standard pronunciation of the name changed at some point in the past for reasons unknown, but the spelling retained an archaic spelling as names often do. The shift from an “f” to a “v” sound happens naturally in a couple of plural formations or words clearly related: “Staff” -\> “staves” in the “long wooden stick” sense but not the “team of people” sense, and “stave” can also be a singular for “wooden strip”, as when used for barrel-making “To graph” is clearly related to “to (en)grave”, “graven” - to etch or draw lines on a surface “To bluff” originally came from “to blave”, which means, to cheat at cards! And [often misheard](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X90qKQAMh8A) as “true love”. (Well, so I’ve heard.) As for why it happened to “Stephen” and not other names or other words, that’s what linguists get to argue over I guess. That said, I’ve known two “Stephens” who insisted on their name being pronounced like “Stefan”, because according to them, if they (or their parents) wanted to be called “Steven” they’d have spelled it with a V. And as for “Stephanie” not sharing this fate, note that “Stevie” can be a nickname for a woman named Stephanie (like “Stevie Nicks” from Fleetwood Mac). ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/8 "2012-10-04T13:05:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Other way around. He later thought that he _should_ have used “dwerrow” and “dwerrows”, but what he actually _did_ use was “dwarf” and “dwarves”, when almost all other sources were using “dwarfs”. It’s not backwards – he made a point of it in the Appendix, which is why people cite hiom as an authority for not saying “dwarves” ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/9 "2012-10-04T13:15:06Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > It’s not backwards – he made a point of it in the Appendix, which is why people cite hiom as an authority for not saying “dwarves” You mean, cite him as an “authority” (or source) for using the word “dwarves” in the first place. Prof. Tolkein (“Dr. T”) made a point of it in [Appendix F](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_%28Middle-earth%29#Spelling_.22Dwarves.22) to RotK that he did not want to use the standard English plural of “dwarfs” for “dwarf”, preferred a less recognizable historical plural of “dwarrows” or “dwerrows”, and eventually settled on “dwarves” as a parallel to “elf -\> elves” which he considered a “piece of private bad grammar” now ensconced in his work. His influence established this plural form as the standard in fantasy writing, but “dwarfs” is still the correct plural for real world “little people”, and Disney’s movie that is entitled “_Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs_”. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/10 "2012-10-04T13:33:04Z")
If you use Google ngram, you’ll find plenty of uses of Dwarves before the good Professor was born. Tolkein’s influence may have helped in fantasy writing, but both plural forms were established already before LotR or The Hobbit. I only brought it up because somebody complained about my bringing up “dwarves” the last thread this was in, and cited Tolkein as an authority that the form oughtn’t to be used – even though Tolkein used it. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/11 "2012-10-04T13:42:14Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > That said, I’ve known two “Stephens” who insisted on their name being pronounced like “Stefan”, because according to them, if they (or their parents) wanted to be called “Steven” they’d have spelled it with a V. And as for “Stephanie” not sharing this fate, note that “Stevie” can be a nickname for a woman named Stephanie (like “Stevie Nicks” from Fleetwood Mac). My aunt is named Stephine (pronounced the same as Stephanie), she’s also the namesake of my middle name Stephan with the F sound which I’ve had to correct people on from time to time (luckily it doesn’t come up much). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/12 "2012-10-04T13:48:23Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Didn’t we just have a thread about this? Yes we did. [Here’s the link.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=659740) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/13 "2012-10-04T14:21:53Z")
Mophed to General Questions from Cafe Society. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/14 "2012-10-04T16:25:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Mophed to General Questions from Cafe Society. And people say the moderators don’t add anything of phalue to the site… ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/15 "2012-10-07T13:00:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Mophed to General Questions from Cafe Society. That just opens further pronunciation questions. (I’d have spelled it moophed, myself.) ---
**Author:** ![\_mostly\_Harmless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/9d8465/32.png) [@\_mostly\_Harmless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_mostly_Harmless)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/16 "2012-10-07T17:53:31Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > Hi I was wondering if the “V” sound of “PH” in Stephen is in any other words with a “PH” in them? In direct answer to the OP - I don’t know of any other words where “PH” is pronounced like “V”. I do, however (think I) know why this is so. The “PH” was originally an “F” sound but since it is between two vowels it assimilated their voicedness as this is a common thing for voiceless consonants to do in that environment. Interestingly enough, this is actually the same process that accounts for the plurals menitoned above. The “ES” plural endings used to be pronounced with the “E” (so “LIVES,” “DWARVES,” etc. would have had one more syllable than they do today). > [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](#): > > And why doesn’t Stephanie follow the same phonetic rule? As to why “Stephanie” doesn’t follow the rule I can only guess that since the first “E” is a lax vowel (the “eh” sound like in “pet” as opposed to the “ee” sound like in “peet”) maybe the change only occurs in the environment of: [Tense Vowel] [Voiceless Consonant] [Vowel] Notice that if we pronounce it as “Stefan” the “E” is the same as in “Stephanie” and those two are different than the first vowel in “Steven.” ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/17 "2012-10-07T18:15:44Z")
I’ve always pronounce it Stefan never Steven. I guess it’s my knowing German. Spell it Steven if that’s how you always want people to say it. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/18 "2012-10-07T19:00:06Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > \*shuit up, all you Tolkien fans. I know he used “dwarfs” and “dwerrows”. I’ve probably read LotR more often than you have. But he wasn’t thr arbiter of English. Tolkien used _dwarves_ for Thorin Oakenshield and his kin, actually, to differentiate them from _dwarfs_, the plural form for “notably short but inarguably non-fictional being.” I tend to think that he did so to make a literary point, and if he’d never used used Dwarves in his fiction would have been fine with calling short people _dwarves._ ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/19 "2012-10-07T22:55:35Z")
At some point in the history of the English (or perhaps the American, I don’t know about the British, not to mentioned Ozzies and others) language, consonants between two vowels all became voiced. Example: “latter” and “ladder” are (nearly) homophonic, the vowel lengths being slightly different. Similarly, “rider” and “writer”. Think of the irregular pronunciations of the plural of “house”. Many other examples will come to mind. So what about “Stephanie”? I don’t know but I would guess that the name entered the language after that change and didn’t undergo it. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672/20 "2012-10-08T01:10:42Z")
That’s not nearly a general rule; it’s true that intervocalic /t/ categorically becomes a voiced alveolar flap in North American English, and often intervocalic /s/ becomes /z/ and intervocalic /ʃ/ becomes /ʒ/, but even this has plenty of exceptions ("slices and “dices”, “eraser”, “messy”, “tassle”, “faucet”, “washer”, “crashing”, “social”, “cachet”, …), not to mention for other consonants (“biker”, “happen”, “pithy”, “coffee”, …). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-v-sound-in-stephen/636672.md?page=2)