# The value of ID cards **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 4, 2002, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339 "2002-07-04T09:58:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339/41 "2002-07-05T15:41:45Z")
Failure to register on the UK electoral roll is already a criminal offence, as the followimg news story illustrates. > **[Court challenge to councils' sale of electoral rolls](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2001/sep/06/localgovernment1)** > > A man who refuses to put his name on the electoral roll because he objects to the sale of his personal details will today launch the first high court challenge to the right of local councils to sell the registers to direct marketing and credit... What the story also answers is **Go alien** ’s complaint about ‘the sheer cost of keeping track of 80 million plus people’; the electoral roll is now a marketable resource from which the government can make serious sums of money. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Go\_alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_alien)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339/42 "2002-07-05T15:42:05Z")
Fair comment, I was a bit over the top. It’s a subject I get very angry about. My wife was surprised at the language I used when this was annnounced by Blunkett. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339/43 "2002-07-05T15:42:48Z")
> [@](#): > > So, basically, in Germany the government (state and/or federal) always knows where you live. The residents’ registers (“Einwohnermeldeamt”) are kept on the local level, although they’re connected to each other: If I move from A to B and unregister at A’s residents’ register, they might contact B in order to verify whether I re-registered. > [@](#): > > Given the inconvenience to people and the sheer cost of keeping track of 80 million plus people, what exactly are the benefits? Well, getting the ID card itself will cost you a fee, but obviously it’a worth all that trouble - there is no major party opposed to the system. It makes life so much easier for the authorities - organization of elections, avoid benefit fraud using multiple identities, easier tracing (Criminal trying to get away? Just submit his data to the airports and border control posts, they’ll input it to the computer, and everyone leaving the country has to present his ID card. They’ll scan it, and the computer, having a list of wanted criminals, will raise alarm if it’s someone they need) of bad guys and whatnot. Besides, passports count as an ID card, too, and since I need a passport anyway there are no additional costs. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339/44 "2002-07-05T15:45:47Z")
Oh, and it spares us censuses, too. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Go\_alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_alien)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339/45 "2002-07-05T15:55:17Z")
**APB** , the police state sneaks closer all the time. At least the electoral register serves some practical purpose. So, if I don’t register for some years, then do, am I prosecuted? I might have been ill, out of the country, living in a commune. Seems like a fair and just law to me.:rolleyes: Talk about a disincentive to register. **Schnitte** , call me an old cynic, but… you seem very trusting that the data on you are correct and that government agencies are competent. One other point, when you unregister at A, do you have to say where you will be registering next, i.e. at B? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339/46 "2002-07-05T17:07:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crusoe \* > To my mind a universal ID is a form of ID that everyone has. I don’t drive and don’t have a driver’s license. I know people who don’t have passports. I’m not debating what’s widely accepted or not, just that a driver’s license can act as a universally available ID. \*\* The problem is that in todays world, it is becomming more important to be able to verify that you are who you say you are. While it’s not mandatory to carry around a Universal ID, Drivers License or Passport, it can be really inconvenient to not have one. I lost my drivers license while on vacation. I don’t have a car but I travel a lot for work. I would be unable to rent a car, pick up plane tickets. While inconvenient, these steps are necessary. Would you rent a $30000 car to someone who couldn’t prove who they said they were? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339/47 "2002-07-05T17:28:47Z")
Here in the good ol’ U.S. of A., the state-issued Drivers License has become the _de facto_ ID card. However, carrying it is not mandatory if you’re not driving. My guess is, mandatory ID cards will not catch on in the U.S., because there are enough fundamentalists with a paranoid bent here who will jump up and scream “Mark of the Beast!” at any attempt to tag them and will lobby vehemently against such laws. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339/48 "2002-07-05T18:39:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Here in the good ol’ U.S. of A., the state-issued Drivers License has become the de facto ID card. However, carrying it is not mandatory if you’re not driving But life is very, very difficult if you don’t carry it. When we first arrived in California, I didn’t have a driving license. We couldn’t even get in to view apartment complexes without one…and many stores now require one to back up a credit card…and try opening a bank account. I’d suggest that you can’t function without one (or the ID card for people who don’t drive). According to the DMV in California, “the Law states that you must notify DMV within 10 days of changing your address”. Someone mentioned the _stern look_ you get from the police officer if you haven’t registered but I think that’s missing the point. In good times, laws like these are a minor inconvenience but in bad times - so the theory goes - they can become a tool of oppression. Having said all that, I was a little shocked when I first arrived here but now all the long-held, civil liberty theories seem faintly ridiculous to me. It is interesting watching the debate in the UK from afar. It is especially interesting to see people worked up about this issue when everyone just rolled over for the security cameras in the streets. [ancedote]If you think you get a stern look because you didn’t change your address, you should see the look you get when you pull out an old style, torn, tatty, weather beaten, 11x8 UK driving license with no photo and an expiration date in 2038. It’s worth getting pulled over just to see that look.[/ anecdote] ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339/49 "2002-07-05T20:07:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Schnitte, call me an old cynic, but… you seem very trusting that the data on you are correct and that government agencies are competent. Well, I am sure the data on me are correct since I can simply check what my ID card says and complain if the information on it is wrong. It’s not like credit reports, that sometimes can be full of completely wrong stuff. [sub]Sometimes I wish the system was a bit more prone to mistakes - when I was 17, they automatically mailed me a first letter informing me I could be drafted after leaving school :mad: [/sub] Are government agencies competent? Well, we hope so. There’s plenty of data protection regulations, stating what the authorities are allowed to do with my data and whom they can forward it to, and there were protests when the ministry of interior planned to make the stuff even stricter (e.g. fingerprints on ID cards). In summary, the privacy lobby is pretty strong here and makes sure abuse of the system gets known to the public, and the government does respect that - some time ago, they even encouraged computer users to employ cryptography software like PGP. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339/50 "2002-07-05T20:11:09Z")
And once again I forgot something: > [@](#): > > One other point, when you unregister at A, do you have to say where you will be registering next, i.e. at B? If possible, i.e. if you know your next address already, they’ll be thankful if you tell them straightaway. If not, upon registering at B, the register of B will ask you where you came from and contact A to verify. This is to avoid that you either a) aren’t registered anywhere, or b) are registered at two different places. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339/51 "2002-07-05T22:01:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kevlaw \* > **It is interesting watching the debate in the UK from afar. It is especially interesting to see people worked up about this issue when everyone just rolled over for the security cameras in the streets.** I know there are security cameras a lot here, more so than in the US, but don’t exaggerate. People didn’t just ‘roll over’ and there aren’t security cameras in every street. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2002, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339/52 "2002-07-06T00:44:17Z")
Blunkett can shove his cards up his arse. Im not paying for one, and Im certainly not going to carry mine around with me. ---
**Author:** ![gh4acws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c6cbf5/32.png) [@gh4acws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gh4acws)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2002, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339/53 "2002-07-06T01:50:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\ ***Go alien** : have any of these abuses happened in Germany or Belgium, where they have national ID cards? (honest question). \*\* While historically there have been Government misuses of the ID card one would not find many in Germany today. OTOH there is quite a number or legal limits to what extent databases on/about citizens can be set up and merged ( only when the data is merged it becomes really threatening today already the tax office the department of motor vehicles the registryoffice /census bureau etc have databases - it is the merging into one unified DB that is potentially dangerous) German constitutional court has declared a civil right for ‘informational selfdetermination’ that does in fact limit government and administration in exchanging data and/or merging databases. Thess rules have come about through a fairly long process and are unlikely to by reproduced instantly in countries newly introducing a national ID card. Note : an adult German is supposed to cary identification, not caryind identification opens the door for police to hold people for identification ( IIRC maximum till the end of the next day = 47 hours 59 minutes ). Since this is work for the police ( filling forms, writing a report, etc ) it is not done routinely ( esspecially as a direct computer linc to the registry office often can verify ones statement about identity: adress, age, haircolor, special marks ) Should on the other hand the police want a reason to hold you for a night and you carry no ID … My own opinion: while I would not claim that our various current governments are after our civil liberties one has to note that historically it always was more difficult to regain liberties once lost and that prctically every limitation of acivil liberty has been abused by the powers that be sooner or later. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-value-of-id-cards/117339.md?page=2)