Here’s a thought that I may choose to deny later on: maybe God is a determined figure. Determined by his own nature. If we assume for a moment that God is all of the omni’s and a perfect being, then God cannot make any choice which is imperfect. For instance, if it’s ‘better’ for God to eat breakfast at 9 am, then he can’t choose to eat it at 10 am because that would be a mar on his perfection. In a similar vein, if it’s ‘better’ for Great Aunt Edna to die of a heart attack, then God could not save her without ceasing to be God. What prayer though does is change the input variables into the black box that is the universe. By nature of our own free will, we can make decisions that alter the circumstances in which the world finds itself. Our choices as a whole alter the world and thus the way that God would respond to the world. If Great Aunt Edna as an example decided to will all of her money to a strip club rather than to the rotary club, her death might no longer be the ‘best’ outcome at that moment. In a similar manner, prayer might change what outcome is ‘best.’ Of course, this outcome may not be what is being prayed for, but it does serve to alter the variables surrounding Great Aunt Edna’s existence and that alters what the ‘best’ action for God to take would be.
Sam Harris on George W. Bush:
Prayer is worthless, and people who pray are mentally diseased.
I just did a search online for “the purpose of prayer”, and for the most part they seem to agree that prayer is for glorifying and/or getting closer to God, with two or three sites saying that prayer is used to inspire people to do something to help others. My opinion is that if it takes prayer to inspire you to actively participate/intervene, then pray away.
A prayer is asking God to do something. A spell is using special words with mystic powers where you are imploring the universe to behave a certain way by directing energy. So, vanilla nonsense and chocolate nonsense.
I really don’t want to be disparaging and say that people who pray should not do that. I respect people whose beliefs are different than mine. I am just wondering what the theological basis is around prayer, because it, like many aspects of religion, seems to hold internal contradictions.
I may be misremembering this or maybe someone just made it up but I remember a clip from a Simpsons show where Lisa says, “Dear God, thank you for saving us from the storm you sent to kill us.”
Prayer may not do what people who are praying say it will do (affect God’s actions) but I think it is humbuggery to say it’s worthless, since it does have some psychological and social value. It’s even worse to say these people are mentally diseased; at worst they are deluding themselves but it’s certainly not harmful.
That would depend on the response they may think they hear.
When it is a substitute for rational thinking or effective action then it can certainly be harmful.
*"When I was back there in seminary school, there was a person there who put forth the proposition that you can petition the lord with prayer.
YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER!"*
-Jim Morrison
Brandon Schaible would disagree with the part I bolded, but he can’t because he’s dead.
Pa. couple sent to prison for 2nd prayer death of child
That’s the second child they killed with prayer. Not harmful my ass.
But doesn’t God already know which path will be chosen?
I wonder if these people bother to look before they cross the road? Or put on warm clothing when it’s cold? Or bother to eat or drink?
God allows us to change reality all the time by our actions. There’s no reason He couldn’t let us change it sometimes by request. Whether He does, of course, is another story.
So your god is not in total control and she/he/it doesn’t know what is going to happen?
I’m trying to figure out by what mechanism prayer could change the inherent value of another person’s life. So far I’m coming up blank - all the usual mechanisms by which prayer could work rely on it either informing god of something the god was unaware of or by feeding the god’s ego. If the god is perfect then neither of those mechanisms would apply.
The real question is why the god was waiting for you to pray before doing anything. If you had chosen not to pray would he kill the person you didn’t pray for?
If the answer is no, then that’s the reason he couldn’t let you change it sometimes by request: he can’t go around waiting for requests unless the outcome doesn’t really matter either way to him.
Which I suppose could be the case - perhaps the god in question doesn’t give one whit about human suffering or death. In that case the capricious god could be influenced to disinterestedly wave a hand and save a life if you wheedle him hard enough.
I suppose if you are a calvinist and beleive in predestination you could argue that as well as whether the person lives or dies being part of god’s plan, whether or not you pray might also be part of god’s plan. So the two events are coincident, but not causal because there are no causal relationships where god is concerned.
So if you pray for Aunt Betty to live and she does, Praise God!
If she dies, then you didn’t pray enough and/or it was in God’s Plan, so…Praise God!
Nice racket.
Maybe a little prayer collapses the wave function?
By what mechanism?
No, seriously. Interpreting a prayer to determine that you’re praying for Aunt Betty to live rather than for your football team to win requires a sentient entity that understands the language you’re praying in, or which can read your mind well enough to determine intent. At this point we’re not talking wave functions; we’re talking a thinking agent. And it this thinking agent is bound in its actions by perfection, omnibenevolence, or omniscience, then your prayer isn’t going to alter its actions one bit.