# "The Vast Majority of Violent Protestors and Looters are Alt-Right Provocateurs" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 31, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802 "2020-05-31T18:46:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/21 "2020-06-01T06:10:18Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The mayor of St. Paul claimed that every person arrested was from out of state. Today they had to correct that to 20% being from out of state. (Officials made claims that the riot here in Rochester was instigated by non-residents after a peaceful protest.) I thought the amended figure was that 20% were from within the state and 80% were from out of state. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/22 "2020-06-01T06:14:05Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > I would really like to know who the hell is [Umbrella Man](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP-D6NnZdDI), and what his motivations were? Some people have posted a supposed identification of him. They say he is a member of the St Paul Police Department. His name has been made public but I don’t want to repeat it. The St Paul PD has stated that it has investigated the officer’s whereabouts and says that they have verified he was on duty at the time of the incident and has an alibi. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/23 "2020-06-01T10:40:04Z")
Well, the [Boogaloo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boogaloo_movement)movement has been openly taking an anti-police stance in the recent riots. They’re described in some sources as “far-right” and have linked themselves to white nationalist and gun rights groups, but they’ve also supported BLM. What they really appear to want is to play both sides against each other to incite a civil war. It is likely they are out and around stirring the shit, but I couldn’t guess at how many there are. Some people just want to watch the world burn. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/24 "2020-06-01T16:04:09Z")
_:Reads about the “Boogaloo Movement”:_ I… I don’t want to be in this timeline anymore. This is a stupid timeline. I want to travel to the timeline with flying cars and Moon colonies–even if it means food comes in pill form and we have to use “the three seashells” instead of toilet paper. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/25 "2020-06-01T16:16:22Z")
[![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/26 "2020-06-01T17:28:06Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The mayor of St. Paul claimed that every person arrested was from out of state. Today they had to correct that to 20% being from out of state. (Officials made claims that the riot here in Rochester was instigated by non-residents after a peaceful protest.) > > Who those 20% are isn’t at all clear now. Undoubtedly some are Antifa and similar troublemakers, and some are white nationalists and other thugs. And local hotheads unquestionably exist. > > Lots of smart officials across the country are saying today that we should stop looking at the tiny minority who are starting trouble and concentrate on why the protests were needed in the first place, something that is far huger and far older than George Floyd’s death. I agree with them. I wonder how many of the “out-of-state” rioters were from Wisconsin, which is a few minutes drive from St. Paul? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/27 "2020-06-01T17:31:26Z")
The concept of “Innocent until proven guilty” is being largely abandoned. Cops continue to do their extrajudicial executions with increasing boldness; and many of those who are outraged by that turn around and ‘just know’ the riots and property damage are started & instigated by undercover cops, or others with an intent to smear those engaging in an otherwise peaceable assembly. No evidence, no arrests, no identification of the alleged instigators, just what past events have suggested. And this conjecture is getting pedaled as Truth. Maybe it is correct, probably even, but it is not yet proven and so is not yet Truth. It’s conjecture, and on paper at least we don’t convict based on conjecture. I’m not seeing a great big moral difference between the two sides. Yes, for now one side has had more fatalities but if the playing field were more level there would be lots of ‘justice’ served on both sides irrespective of evidence or lack of it. “They started it” absolutely does not excuse abandoning the fundamental principle of our criminal justice system. If anything, those who feel wronged should cleave more strongly to it to maintain the moral high ground. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/28 "2020-06-01T17:44:28Z")
Now I’m back to seeing on Twitter posts about how those “child soldiers” in Atlanta were actually children placed there by the right wing to justify excess force if one of the “children” was hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/29 "2020-06-01T17:45:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I thought the amended figure was that 20% were from within the state and 80% were from out of state. I can’t find the original story out of the NBC affiliate in Minneapolis but here is a [Time](https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/5845680/out-of-state-agitators-minnesota-george-floyd-protests-barr/%3famp=true) article talking about it. Through Sunday only 15% of the people arrested were from out of state. I’m sure you could argue that people arrested isn’t a random cross section of the total people rioting but it seems unlikely to be off by 3 or 4x you would need for the majority to be from out of state. The local NBC affiliate has been trying to do the same thing with arrest records here in Denver but our police haven’t published the full list of names and address hopefully that will be on the news tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/30 "2020-06-01T18:35:55Z")
The figures I heard came from television, so I can’t back them up now. All the reports I’m reading now say that no reliable numbers are available and officials have not backed up their claims. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/31 "2020-06-01T19:00:36Z")
Complete bullshit. There’s been serious looting within walking distance of where I live. I’ve seen plenty of it. It’s just plain looters. I should add that the looters seem to be a distinct group from the protestors. They appear to be following groups of protesters, seeking opportunity in the chaos. Often, from what I’ve seen, the protesters try to stop the looters. For example: [https://nypost.com/2020/05/31/protesters-form-human-chain-to-defend-nyc-target-from-looters/](https://nypost.com/2020/05/31/protesters-form-human-chain-to-defend-nyc-target-from-looters/) That happened within walking distance of my apartment. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/32 "2020-06-01T19:19:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I thought the amended figure was that 20% were from within the state and 80% were from out of state. As I understood it, at the same time that the Mayor of St. Paul was asserting that 100% of the people were arrested were coming from out of state, the Governor was saying that about 80% were out of state. So it wasn’t an “amended figure,” it was two people saying similar things at the same time. The earlier claims have been abandoned, but I don’t believe there has been an amended figure. Although, apparently, [the arrest records](https://www.kare11.com/article/news/investigations/kare-11-investigates-records-show-arrests-mostly-minnesotans-as-george-floyd-protests-riots-continue-minneapolis-st-paul/89-73f3e0e8-0664-41d5-8d3e-4467d04da7cb) show approximately 86% of those arrested have Minnesota addresses. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/33 "2020-06-01T20:18:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Plus, most are black Got a cite for this? Because I know in my area, “most” looters were not black for any commonly understood definitions of “most” or “black.” ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/34 "2020-06-01T21:04:32Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Complete bullshit. > > There’s been serious looting within walking distance of where I live. I’ve seen plenty of it. > > It’s just plain looters. > > I should add that the looters seem to be a distinct group from the protestors. They appear to be following groups of protesters, seeking opportunity in the chaos. Often, from what I’ve seen, the protesters try to stop the looters. For example: > > [https://nypost.com/2020/05/31/protesters-form-human-chain-to-defend-nyc-target-from-looters/](https://nypost.com/2020/05/31/protesters-form-human-chain-to-defend-nyc-target-from-looters/) > > That happened within walking distance of my apartment. I think the theme of that article gives a big clue to where the (very likely nearly complete) bullshit claim that looting is driven by ‘right wing’ groups comes from. The article puts the ‘real’ protesters in a favorable light: they defended a Target store from looting. The idea that it’s the ‘right wing’ doing the destruction is in the same vein, avoiding the whole movement of the protest being tarnished by people basically on the same ideological side as the ‘good’ protesters being the ones stealing and destroying. But the messy reality is probably just that. It’s not like the local people ‘just looting’ aren’t also pissed at police, justice system etc problems, and also basically part of the left as far as their participation in politics such as it may be. Moreover there’s a track record of actual evidence of far left/anarchist groups deliberately being destructive and violent as part of basically left protests (anti-WTO, BLM, OWS etc). Because, they think that’s the way to bring about real change, provoking a backlash which radicalizes people to follow them, not the moderate left. That wasn’t new back when it was the Mensheviks v the Bolsheviks, it’s a pattern within left protest that goes way back. The idea it’s somehow right wing groups to any significant extent is an extraordinary claim. It requires extraordinary evidence but there seems almost none. Anyway it’s also pretty obvious the _majority_ of people involved in looting and destruction aren’t agitators and it would be truly shocking if a majority were not local. If outside agitators had to actually outnumber the local people they are trying to agitate, they wouldn’t be very effective agitators. Nor are they necessarily present in every case and location. Many ordinary people will loot if they feel entitled by the combination of a perceived injustice and the cops stepping back and letting them, which seems to be SOP in these cases at least for big city govts and their police forces. The idea seems to be that the situation will be least worst if you just let it burn itself out. Tough on small businesses though, ‘you fucked up by choosing to open here and trusting us to protect you’, seems to be the de facto municipal government message. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/35 "2020-06-01T21:04:44Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Plus, most are black Got a cite for this? Because I know in my area, “most” looters were not black for any commonly understood definitions of “most” or “black.” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/36 "2020-06-01T21:08:31Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > Got a cite for this? Because I know in my area, “most” looters were not black for any commonly understood definitions of “most” or “black.” In my area, just looking at the video footage, most of the looters appear to have been black, but most of the vandals have been either white or are super light-skinned. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/37 "2020-06-01T22:37:00Z")
I’m not at all sure about the political leanings of protestors, but in a majority-black crowd in my city, the bottle-throwers and fireworks-throwers were majority-white. There are people who, for whatever motive, are trying to hijack nonviolent protests and move them into violence. I don’t especially care about their ideology; they’re horrible people. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/38 "2020-06-01T22:40:35Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > In my area, just looking at the video footage, most of the looters appear to have been black, but most of the vandals have been either white or are super light-skinned. The vandals appear to be white and Latino. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/39 "2020-06-02T11:15:18Z")
These white agitators dont even loot. They know the system. They know getting caught with stolen merchandise makes them a target for arrest. They show up, smash windows, set fires, and such, then quickly run away. They have lookouts for cops or people who would stop or detain them. Notice how they wear backpacks which I’m guessing is for a quick change of clothes. I’d guess they carry no ID and have fake names and such ready if caught. Are they right or left I dont care. I just want the FBI or some other group to bust them. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802/40 "2020-06-02T12:15:56Z")
Washington Post had an article on this. No examples of white provocateurs being confirmed right wing but a number of examples of white people causing trouble that results in increased and unnecessary police response for black folks. > **[White instigators to blame for mayhem in some protests, local officials say](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/protests-white-instigators/2020/06/01/b916bd98-a426-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html)** > > An arrest warrant for a 20-year-old white man accused of inciting riots in Pittsburgh sheds light on how some protests for racial justice create opportunity for pandemonium. This article discusses a white guy from Illinois who went to Minnesota to riot (complete with improvised explosives!). Dumbass was kind enough to post videos of him fucking shit up to his Facebook page. [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/charges-illinois-man-went-to-minneapolis-to-riot/ar-BB14TCV0?li=BBnb7Kz](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/charges-illinois-man-went-to-minneapolis-to-riot/ar-BB14TCV0?li=BBnb7Kz) I don’t think I have ever hated America more than I do right now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vast-majority-of-violent-protestors-and-looters-are-alt-right-provocateurs/854802.md?page=3)