# The Vatican plays 3-Priest Monte once again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 16, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446 "2017-09-16T02:50:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/41 "2017-09-16T20:31:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not sure about other countries, but I can’t imagine the US ever agreeing to such an arrangement. So the alternative is not some other system, but a diminution of diplomacy itself. I do believe, though, that no Western European country would agree to such an arrangement with the US that did not exclude capital offenses-- which, as I understand our legal system today, is limited to murder. I have absolutely no doubt that you are correct about all of this, but the fact that these countries would not agree to the idea does not, by itself, invalidate the principles behind the proposal. > [@Chronos](#): > > Countries would presumably only be on such good terms if they had a great deal of trust in each others’ justice systems. And if they have such trust in each others’ justice systems, then there would be no need to waive diplomatic immunity, because they would expect that a misbehaving diplomat would be put on trial by his own home country. In other words, what the Vatican is starting to do here. > > Will it be a fair trial? That remains to be seen. If it begins to look like it won’t be, then you’ll be perfectly justified in this pitting. But if it is, then you’re complaining about them doing exactly the thing that you’re complaining that they don’t do. I disagree. Your whole post assumes that a trial in a country 6,000 miles away can ever be a properly fair trial. It might not be unfair in the sense of deliberate bias or corruption, but the simple difficulties of distance reduce the likelihood of a full and complete investigation of the facts of a case. > [@Quartz](#): > > Sure, let’s have Venezuela (or wherever) accuse American diplomats of child abuse and refuse to honour diplomatic immunity, because America refuses to honour diplomatic immunity for allegations of that crime. Yeah, that’s right, just ignore the substance of my argument. I made very clear that i was talking about countries who already had strong relationships, who have confidence in one another’s justice systems, and who reach a mutual agreement about how to deal with waivers of diplomatic immunity. Take a wild guess as to whether i believe that Venezuela, under its current government and in its current relationship with the United States, would fit those criteria. But you keep setting up those straw men just so you can knock them down and pretend to some level of rational discourse. You’ve proven yourself to be mighty good at it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/42 "2017-09-16T21:02:28Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I have absolutely no doubt that you are correct about all of this, but the fact that these countries would not agree to the idea does not, by itself, invalidate the principles behind the proposal. OK, I’ll chalk up our disagreement to me not being clear about what I meant when I used the term “the alternative”. I should have said “any practical alternative” or “any realistic alternative”. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/43 "2017-09-16T21:33:42Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Yeah, that’s right, just ignore the substance of my argument… But you keep setting up those straw men just so you can knock them down and pretend to some level of rational discourse. You’ve proven yourself to be mighty good at it. I’m not ignoring it, nor am I setting up a straw man. I’m pointing out that once such an agreement is reached, others can seize upon it. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/44 "2017-09-17T01:14:10Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Does Vatican City State have a history of pedophilia among its diplomatic corps? It happened in the Dominican Republic. The Vatican representative was revealed to be a serial molester, he was called ‘a good man’ by the then cardinal, and when the DR requested that the Vatican wave inmunity he was spirited away. The Vatican said that they would do their own investigation, half a world away from victims and witnesses. In the meantime the guy was free, and died of natural causes later. No word of any investigation or help for his victims. I posted a pit thread then, but I don’t want to revisit it. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/45 "2017-09-17T01:15:41Z")
And this was under Pope Francis. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/46 "2017-09-17T03:13:14Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > If the crime is serious enough, a country can waive immunity for one of its diplomats. Here’s a case. > > [Gueorgui Makharadze - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gueorgui_Makharadze) > > I guess the Vatican felt possession of child porn didn’t merit a waiver. Was a waiver requested by the State Department, as it was in the Makharadze case? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/47 "2017-09-17T03:16:44Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Doesn’t the Vatican have a treaty with Italy to use Italian jails if need be? Actually, the Vatican has a detention cell, located in the offices of the Vatican guard. But it’s more like a monks’ cell than a barred jail cell. Described as a reasonably large, bare-walled (except for a crucifix) room. Pope Benedicts’ butler, who leaked Vatican documents to the public, was held here for a year & a half. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/48 "2017-09-17T04:04:04Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Then you badly misread Hewey Logan’s post. Yeah he did. Very badly. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Was a waiver requested by the State Department, as it was in the Makharadze case? They asked but it was denied. > [@](#): > > A U.S. State Department official told ABC News that the United States requested that the Vatican embassy in Washington waive diplomatic immunity for the individual, but the request was denied. > > The State Department only asks for a waiver of diplomatic immunity when “the prosecutor advises that he or she would prosecute but for immunity,” according to department guidance in a June 2015 handbook. [https://www.yahoo.com/gma/vatican-pulls-diplomat-us-amid-concerns-child-pornography-182004866--abc-news-topstories.html](https://www.yahoo.com/gma/vatican-pulls-diplomat-us-amid-concerns-child-pornography-182004866--abc-news-topstories.html) ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/49 "2017-09-17T04:06:35Z")
At a certain point when the umpteenth cleric is whisked off to the vatican before they can assemble a grand jury, you stop treating them like any other country. It’s not just diplomats and immunity that have been at issue. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/50 "2017-09-17T04:15:01Z")
What are you proposing? Just keep the diplomat, or something else? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/51 "2017-09-17T04:52:22Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > At a certain point when the umpteenth cleric is whisked off to the vatican before they can assemble a grand jury, you stop treating them like any other country. It’s not just diplomats and immunity that have been at issue. We respect the immunity of diplomats from “any other country”. What about the sovereign state of Vatican City makes them different? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/52 "2017-09-17T05:01:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We respect the immunity of diplomats from “any other country”. What about the sovereign state of Vatican City makes them different? If its a RICO type scheme supporting world child abuse that may be different than most average countries. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/53 "2017-09-17T07:00:42Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > At a certain point when the umpteenth cleric is whisked off to the vatican before they can assemble a grand jury, you stop treating them like any other country. It’s not just diplomats and immunity that have been at issue. What is it that’s at issue? You are familiar, are you not, of the legal concept that you don’t punish someone for another person’s crime? > [@HeweyLogan](#): > > What are you proposing? Just keep the diplomat, or something else? I’d venture that dd would be quite comfortable with not even having a trial and just sending the accused to the gallows, possibly with a pit stop along the way for some barbaric “justice”. > [@Smapti](#): > > We respect the immunity of diplomats from “any other country”. What about the sovereign state of Vatican City makes them different? It’s a country whose head of state is also the head of a religion he doesn’t like. So, of course, to hell with treating their diplomats like actual diplomats. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > If its a RICO type scheme supporting world child abuse that may be different than most average countries. You’re not even going to pretend there’s a chance you are mistaken, are you? By the way, a Chinese citizen has fled to the United States. America and China do not have an extradtion treaty. The man was already wanted for corruption, IIRC. Since the PRC wasn’t getting any traction on that charge, they upped their game and suddenly accused him of a sex crime. Where do you stand on that? Is the accusation alone good for you to support having his rights violated? You probably don’t see the point of that query. Let’s consider something else. The point of honoring diplomatic immunity is so other countries, not just the one whose diplomat’s immunity was disregarded, do not railroad our diplomats. And it’s sheer nonsense to say the investigation by the Vatican investigators would be carried out thousands of miles away. They would travel to the US, work with US investigators, and possibly request those investigators to travel to the Vatican for any ensuing trial (if one were to be held). Now, dd, do you care to discuss this particular issue rationally or is it more fun to rave? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/54 "2017-09-17T08:17:05Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > If its a RICO type scheme supporting world child abuse that may be different than most average countries. So you want to do… what, exactly? Arrest the Vatican? ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/55 "2017-09-17T11:34:07Z")
The Vatican has a weird status in being simultaneously a country and an international organisation at the same time- but as a country, it’s far from the only place where either a crime we think is important is treated as unimportant, or certain people can get away with crimes by virtue of their status. Considering, for instance, Siam Sam’s long running saga of the Red Bull heir - how many countries in the world could be trusted to appropriately punish one of their diplomats who killed someone driving drunk? I’m thinking not that many, and that probably the usual case when a diplomat does something really egregious is that they get off with a simple deportation and a slap on the wrist. But sometimes the boot would be on the other foot. What if an American diplomat in Singapore is caught smuggling a couple of ounces of cocaine in the diplomatic bag. Would you be comfortable handing them over to be hanged? Because if not, Singaporeans could quite justifiably start saying exactly the same thing people are saying here about the Vatican diplomat - this lowlife is going to get off with a slap on the wrist because their country just doesn’t give enough of a shit about the repulsive crime they committed. I do see another advantage to allowing the Vatican to deal with this guy too which is that - grindingly slowly - the Catholic Church is getting somewhat better about dealing with child abuse issues. They sent Cardinal Pell back to Australia for his trial, for instance. So if they say they’re going to investigate and prosecute - well, hold them to it. Put diplomatic pressure on them - ask them what the status of the investigation is. Put them on the spot. That’s all perfectly legitimate international relations stuff. The end game, after all, should be that the Vatican takes child abuse and child porn seriously as a whole, not that Vatican officials learn to restrict their child porn consumption to times when they’re actually in the Vatican. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/56 "2017-09-17T12:14:30Z")
That’s a good point: The underlying problem here can’t be solved by relying on other countries’ justice systems, since not everything the Vatican does is done in other countries’ jurisdictions. And even of those things which are done in other countries’ jurisdictions, some of those countries have justice systems which I think even the OP would agree are even more corrupt than the Vatican’s. In order to fix this problem, they have to fix it within their own justice system. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/57 "2017-09-17T14:13:43Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > it’s far from the only place where either a crime we think is important is treated as unimportant, or certain people can get away with crimes by virtue of their status. True, but I know of no other where child abuse is considered “unimportant” and Club Members who commit it can get away with it. There are certainly none whose existence is based on a claim to moral leadership. > [@](#): > > Put diplomatic pressure on them - ask them what the status of the investigation is. Put them on the spot. That’s all perfectly legitimate international relations stuff. No doubt Ambassador Callista Gingrich was nominated to perform that very role. The Vatican can stonewall and footdrag longer than any elected government, btw. > [@Chronos](#): > > some of those countries have justice systems which I think even the OP would agree are even more corrupt than the Vatican’s. In order to fix this problem, they have to fix it within their own justice system. Cite that the Vatican even \*has \*a justice system? ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/58 "2017-09-17T15:12:31Z")
You and others keep dancing around the obvious - what do you want done? And if you or they get around to answering that, could you answer the question of what that precedence would set and mean worldwide? Otherwise this is just rage without any thought process at all. Histrionics. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/59 "2017-09-17T16:43:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So you want to do… what, exactly? Arrest the Vatican? Every time they do this it further demonstrates their corrupt criminal intent in all the other cases. I let the justice system decide who gets tried and when. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446/60 "2017-09-17T16:55:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That’s a good point: The underlying problem here can’t be solved by relying on other countries’ justice systems, since not everything the Vatican does is done in other countries’ jurisdictions. And even of those things which are done in other countries’ jurisdictions, some of those countries have justice systems which I think even the OP would agree are even more corrupt than the Vatican’s. In order to fix this problem, they have to fix it within their own justice system. It would be nice if certain folks would let this play out before ranting about how bad it’s going to be. There is a new sherif in town, so give the guy a chance. The Vatican’s criminal justice system seems more suited to dealing with religious issues, but it does exist, so let’s see how things go. [This won’t be the first time criminal proceedings related to child abuse (or possession of child porn) have been brought against a Vatican Diplomat by The Holy See itself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Weso%C5%82owski), but presumably this guy, Capella, won’t die during the process. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-plays-3-priest-monte-once-again/796446.md?page=4)