# The Vatican Secret Library, Gnosticism, and other stuff **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2003, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-secret-library-gnosticism-and-other-stuff/181320 "2003-06-12T14:04:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-secret-library-gnosticism-and-other-stuff/181320/21 "2020-03-03T00:57:06Z")
I think if the modern world has taught mankind anything, it’s that there is no knowledge that will save you. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-secret-library-gnosticism-and-other-stuff/181320/22 "2020-03-03T12:57:19Z")
I clicked on the link, on my phone, which led me to some impenetrable modern religious screed, none of which appears to have any relation to Gnosticism. The same link in a browser (Firefox/ macOS Catalina) led me to a page that requested US$1 to subscribe. I declined that invitation. That said, “all we all” have a decent graphic designer; I do like their logo. ---
**Author:** ![Gnostic\_Christian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnostic_christian/32/7326_2.png) [@Gnostic\_Christian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gnostic_Christian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-secret-library-gnosticism-and-other-stuff/181320/23 "2020-03-03T18:38:21Z")
> [@bifar](#): > > Forgive me in advance if I sound really stupid about all this kind of stuff, because believe me, I am. > > Also sorry if this is a really old-hat discussion; I did do a cursory search and didn’t find much. > > Anyway. Someone on another message board posted about the Vatican’s secret archives. They said that apparently there are (or there have been) loads of old texts that have been suppressed because they go against received Christian dogma – even though these texts are closer to the time of Jesus than some of the Gospels. > > Can anyone give me the Straight Dope on this? Are these texts significant? If so, should we hear more about them (assuming they’re now available)? Are they really more historically accurate than the Gospels? Were they really hidden, or were Protestants always able to access them? In short, is or was the Vatican really evil and nasty in hiding the ‘truth’ or is it a big lot of nothing? > > I’m also a bit confused about Gnosticism, because apparently these old texts back up a lot of that sect’s teaching. Is Gnosticism older than the established religion we have now? Should we re-introduce it? Was there any reason it was deemed heretic? Was it the Vatican being eeevvill again? > > Ah, so many questions, so little time. I beg your indulgence. I am a poor researcher but have tried to show that my Gnostic Christian roots predated Christianity by a long shot. It is my un-proven opinion that early esoteric Jews, which few know existed, Greek Chrestians and early Gnostic Chrestian, Christians today, formed what we now call Gnostic Christianity. It was known as the good man’s ideology where man was put above god. Jesus was called Jesus the good and god was called god the good. That may have something to do with later Gnostics, like the Cathars saying that they were the only good Christians. Given that Christianity grew with inquisitions instead of good moral arguments, the Gnostic Christian Cathars might have had it right. Their highest designation of god was called Parfait or perfected man. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/rAt-PAkgqls/hqdefault.jpg "Excavating The Empty Tomb - Part 15D") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAt-PAkgqls) Few Christians actually choose to be Christian and mostly all follow family traditions that somehow have them thinking that Yahweh, a genocidal maniac can be a good god, and that his homophobic and misogynous religion is somehow worthy of them. Regards DL ---
**Author:** ![Gnostic\_Christian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnostic_christian/32/7326_2.png) [@Gnostic\_Christian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gnostic_Christian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-secret-library-gnosticism-and-other-stuff/181320/24 "2020-03-03T18:49:14Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I don’t endorse Gnosticism, mind you, nor do I think the Gnostic gosepls are really worth reading. Yet they are the only source of what Jesus apparently said. What do you endorse? Christianity? Why, when the morality in Gnostic Christianity is so much more moral than what Christianity posits. Take the death of King David’s, Christians give Yahweh a pass for torturing his baby for 6 days before finally murdering it, all because of his anger with the king. Gnostic Christians give Yahweh a fail for it. Who do you think is right and why? Regards DL ---
**Author:** ![Gnostic\_Christian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnostic_christian/32/7326_2.png) [@Gnostic\_Christian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gnostic_Christian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-secret-library-gnosticism-and-other-stuff/181320/25 "2020-03-03T19:04:45Z")
> [@gallows\_fodder](#): > > I disagree with **astorian** > > The basic tenet of Gnosticism is that Knowledge (gnosis) brings salvation / enlightenment / paradise / transcendence. Knowledge is the understanding that the physical/fleshly world is corrupt and the spiritual world is good and perfect. Ditto on your disagreement. Your first on knowledge is correct. Christianity is conflicted on Adam’s sin. They call it the curse of Original Sin condemn Adam for it, while at the same time sing of it, in their Exultet hymn as Adam’s sin being a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan. I often as Christians if they would follow Adam’s lead and sin to further god’s plan or if they would refrain and derail god’s plan. I tend to not get an answer and they just run away after a suitable insult. As to the good or evil of the physical world, yhere ias also a conflict in Christian opposing our older view when reading our Gnostic Gospels the wrong way. Literally. If any are going to read literally, read these that way and you see that we see matter as evolving perfection. * * * I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians. The Christian reality. 1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. ## Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. The Gnostic Christian reality. Gnostic Christian Jesus said, “Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]” "If those who attract you say, ‘See, the Kingdom is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, ‘It is under the earth,’ then the fish of the sea will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. [Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty." As you can see from that quote, if we see God’s kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don’t see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do. Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world? Candide. "It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.” That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle. Regards DL ---
**Author:** ![Gnostic\_Christian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnostic_christian/32/7326_2.png) [@Gnostic\_Christian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gnostic_Christian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-secret-library-gnosticism-and-other-stuff/181320/26 "2020-03-03T19:22:08Z")
> [@gallows\_fodder](#): > > As far as my recollection goes, I don’t believe there are any Gnostic Christian texts that contain the “story” of Jesus as we see in the New Testament. Perhaps because they would have little to do with the basic Gnostic Christian message of meditation to gain Gnosis and that man should be above all the gods that we have created. We wanted all to know that they were all myths. Further on the foolishness of readings myths literally. I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths. > **[What is God?](https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2/)** > > “A History of God” author Karen Armstrong answers the biggest question of all. Further. [http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html](http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html) Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, “The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it.” Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths. "Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, “God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning.” Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship. https://www.youtube.com/embed/oR02ciandvg?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&list=PLCBF574D Regards DL ---
**Author:** ![Gnostic\_Christian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnostic_christian/32/7326_2.png) [@Gnostic\_Christian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gnostic_Christian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-secret-library-gnosticism-and-other-stuff/181320/27 "2020-03-03T19:27:51Z")
> [@Susma\_Rio\_Sep](#): > > I would be excited if they tell us where to look for hidden treasures nowadays worth millions of dollars and can be employed for the study of peace and non-violence. > > Susma Rio Sep The studies have been done, and guess what. The World Peace Index shows statistically that the less religion a country has, the more peaceful and law abiding it is. Regards DL ---
**Author:** ![Gnostic\_Christian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnostic_christian/32/7326_2.png) [@Gnostic\_Christian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gnostic_Christian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-secret-library-gnosticism-and-other-stuff/181320/28 "2020-03-03T19:33:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What about the Cathars of medieval southern France? I’ve seen them described as “Gnostic.” Were they descended from the first-century Gnostics? And did any surive? I’ve found several websites of “Cathar” churches but I don’t know if these are just modern re-creations. Are the Gnostics still with us, in any sense? Yes we are, and the message is about the same. The Cathar Parfait, meaning perfected person, was the same message I sell. * * * Modern Gnostic Christians name our god “I am”, and yes, we do mean ourselves. You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I. The name “I Am” you might see as meaning something like, — I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation. In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus. That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught. Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/alRNbesfXXw/hqdefault.jpg "Alan Watts - On The Book of Eli") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw) Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link. The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths. Regards DL ---
**Author:** ![Gnostic\_Christian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnostic_christian/32/7326_2.png) [@Gnostic\_Christian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gnostic_Christian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-secret-library-gnosticism-and-other-stuff/181320/29 "2020-03-03T19:46:38Z")
> [@abraxasdisciple](#): > > Hey, sorry if it does feel like I’m spamming this message board. I am not a usual member of TSD. I’ve just been on a lot of different forums recently searching for conversations about Gnosticism in hopes that someone has some information on this or some insight on whether it is even actually a modern gnostic text. Again sorry, I didn’t mean to disrupt any normal flow of messaging. A thing to remember is that Gnostic Christians are perpetual seekers of god. God defined as the best rules and laws to live by. We evolve so as not to become idol worshipers who are stuck in gears that are 2,000 years old like Christianity and Islam are. They still idol worship a genocidal god and that is not good as it has created homophobic and misogynous religions. Ask a modern Gnostic Christian like me for the modern views. That are not all that different but must be seen in the light of what we know today. I put a longish post above showing how we do not hate matter, as some think, but actually see ourselves as having a speak of the divine within us, and the divine would hardly live in imperfect matter. Regards DL ---
**Author:** ![Gnostic\_Christian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnostic_christian/32/7326_2.png) [@Gnostic\_Christian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gnostic_Christian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-secret-library-gnosticism-and-other-stuff/181320/30 "2020-03-03T19:49:56Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I think if the modern world has taught mankind anything, it’s that there is no knowledge that will save you. Save us/you from what? Who condemned you and why? Regards DL [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vatican-secret-library-gnosticism-and-other-stuff/181320.md?page=1)