# The verdict is in, and CBS is indeed guilty! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087 "2005-01-10T19:37:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/41 "2005-01-11T04:59:23Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t really know that much about what Bush did during Vietnam nor do I really care. I know I would have dodged the draft to the best of my ability and if he was able to by his fathers influence bully for him. Why do you hate America? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/42 "2005-01-11T05:03:38Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Why do you hate America? No No No if I wouldn’t have gone to Vietnam then I must be a Commie Red. Come on people. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/43 "2005-01-11T05:05:40Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t really know that much about what Bush did during Vietnam nor do I really care. The character qualifications, maturity, and judgment of the man with the power to get you killed aren’t something you really care about. A news station’s haste in getting a scoop is, however, something you care very much about. But _you’re_ not distracted from the issue, \*we \* are? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/44 "2005-01-11T05:09:02Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The character qualifications, maturity, and judgment of the man with the power to get you killed aren’t something you really care about. A news station’s haste in getting a scoop is, however, something you care very much about. But _you’re_ not distracted from the issue, \*we \* are? Oh look now we are on whether or not a military record from 30 years ago is important or not. Keep flinging shit boys we are almost off topic! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/45 "2005-01-11T05:23:49Z")
Someday, that darn ol’ liberal media will be vanquished, and all the news will be happy news! All the old folks will be eating dog food, and all our kids carrying guns and shooting brown people…but the news will be cheerful and upbeat! (Hope they don’t put John Stewart in Guantanamo…kinda like him…) ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/46 "2005-01-11T05:36:38Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Rather already apologized to the viewers. They’re who was misled, not Bush. [qualifier] This poster is _not_ a GWB fan, or republican. [/qualifier] Misleading the viewrs was one of the crimes committed here, and for that they owe the viewing public an apology. I believe someone said Rather has already done that. (I don’t watch him) But they also reported some pretty rough stuff about GWB that we know now was untrue. Whether that meets the very high standard for slander/libel for public persons is irrelevent. That’s not the point. They trashed the guy. Whatever his _other_ sins, _these_ weren’t his. Professional integrity, respect for truth, and common decency requires that they apologize to the man. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/47 "2005-01-11T05:53:48Z")
“Even though the documents are fake, the allegations are still true!” I guess we might as well accept it…and accept that Jayson Blair was actually telling the “truth”-so what if he made most of it up? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/48 "2005-01-11T06:07:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Sure! Political loyalty ain’t squat to these people! They play to win, every day, all day. Besides which, if they did a story like that on Kerry, it would sure lend some credence to their non-partisan _bona fides_, no? Besides, your analogy is bogus. The story about Bush and the Guard had been long, long substantiated, this was little more than a footnote about one of his commanders (a story, I remind you, was backed up by his personal secretary as correctly representing his views…or did you forget that?). This didn’t come as a complete shock out of far right field, this was all well plowed ground. The story, it appears, was true, the documents were faked. A crucial difference. Hey, it was your analogy. I just made it more like the one under discussion-- a forgery that anyone with a computer and half a brain could figure out in a few hours. As for this “footnote” being true, the only evidence that it is consists of the 30 year old memories of an 80 year old woman OTOH, all the other principles who are still alive disagree with the ocntents of the docs. So, no, this isn’t going to sink CBS (as I said in post #2 of this thread). But it’s still going to be a huge story, and certainly warrents its share of threads in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/49 "2005-01-11T06:14:50Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I guess we might as well accept it…and accept that Jayson Blair was actually telling the “truth”-so what if he made most of it up? I’m sorry, I just got back from my weekly Bush effigy burning- how did we get to Jayson Blair here? Does this have to do with liberal bias in some way? Whatever the truth about Bush is, it’s not relevant here, but logic says that proof these documents are fake isn’t quite the same as proof Bush actually served. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/50 "2005-01-11T06:19:37Z")
If CBS _did_ apologize on the air to Bush, they would have to phrase it so that it would not mislead the public into assuming that the information bearing the forged signatures was necessarily incorrect. That might make things even worse. The purpose of the news broadcast is to inform the public. They admitted to the public that they made a mistake in the information they provided and they apologized for that mistake. An apology to Bush would be directed at only one person – not the public. We have no way of knowing if CBS has already apologized for the error to Bush privately after acknowledging the error in public. > [@](#): > > **Martin Hyde** : Why don’t we just throw out all semblance of decency, common sense, and law and order? As exemplified by Rumsfeld, Bush, and Ashcroft, respectively? I was disgusted with CBS News for not living up to the standards that had made them so reliable in earlier decades. I haven’t watched their network news regularly for a long time. But pardon me if their journalistic blunder is but a gnat in comparison to the Texas longhorn stampede that has trampled the groundwork of all that our country has stood for in the way it treats other human beings. You don’t like forged papers, bad journalism and a lack of a public apology to the President. I don’t like torturing the enemy, creating death squads, arresting sick old men, killing children, and sacrificing American lives. It isn’t CBS who has been the threat to human decency, common sense and law and order. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/51 "2005-01-11T06:21:48Z")
I think, quite frankly, having Dan Rather fired from the network outright would have not only been apology and restitution enough, it would have left us in CBS’s debt… ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/52 "2005-01-11T06:26:53Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > The scope of the double standard coming from the conservative side is simply breathtaking. Really? I would have said “predictable,” myself. CBS screwed up. The people who screwed up have been publicly humiliated, disgraced, and required to perform virtual _seppuku_ for their shame. This is as it should be. Why all the puffy-chested proud Bush apologists can’t hold the _President of the United States_ to a similar standard is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/53 "2005-01-11T06:37:56Z")
**Zoe said:** > [@](#): > > The purpose of the news broadcast is to inform the public. They admitted to the public that they made a mistake in the information they provided and they apologized for that mistake. An apology to Bush would be directed at only one person – not the public. > > We have no way of knowing if CBS has already apologized for the error to Bush privately after acknowledging the error in public. Interesting point. but my feeling is this: You trashed him publicly. Apologize to him publicly. \ > [@](#): > > It isn’t CBS who has been the threat to human decency, common sense and law and order. Hey I agree with much of that. But it’s irrelevent. My calculator still figures 2 wrongs at 2 wrongs. Go after him—relentlessly if necessary—but when you’ve screwed up royally–as CBS has done— stand up straight and do the right thing. They owe the man a **public** apology. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/54 "2005-01-11T15:35:43Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Bit of a false dichotomy there. The fact is, network news has been on a ratings decline for years as cable news gets a bigger and bigger share of the pie. This is just another hit for network news, but it’s an exageration to think that one problematic story is going to sink the whole network (or the others as well). That’s true. However, it should be noted that for several years CBS has had the smallest slice of this shrinking pie. Though once dominant, they’re now perpetually third behind both ABC and NBC in the nightly newscast. Part of the reason may well be a perception that the network has a partisan axe to grind. > [@John Mace](#): > > These things tend to be self-correcting over time, as the networks learn how better to compete with the cable companies. You’ll probably predict things incorrectly whenever you make a straight-line extrapolation about the future in these types of circumstances. Well, if I’m predicting things poorly, it’s not without cause. Les Moonves of CBS is sufficiently worried that he’s warning that the culture of the news division has to change. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/55 "2005-01-11T16:27:34Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > That’s true. However, it should be noted that for several years CBS has had the smallest slice of this shrinking pie. Though once dominant, they’re now perpetually third behind both ABC and NBC in the nightly newscast. > > Part of the reason may well be a perception that the network has a partisan axe to grind. I’m just repeating what I heard on the news yesterday, so I don’t have a cite, but consider these facts: CBS has its lowest ratings in the big cities, and its highest ratings in the “red state” areas-- the opposite of what you’d expect if your observation was correct. CBS’s ratings, though in a long declined, showed no evidence of being significantly affected by this story over the last few months. You could, of course, be right, but is there any actual direct evidence that you are? I don’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/56 "2005-01-11T17:51:09Z")
Make what you want to out of this – but it appears Mary Mapes was ready to get Burkett some **money in payment for the documents she wanted** – via a book deal. Here are copies of CBS emails regarding these documents – (located at pages 60 - 61 of the Panel’s report) On August 31 Micheal Smith, a freelance writer whom Mary Mapes was working, emailed to Ms. Mapes the following — all “hypothetical” of course. > [@](#): > > **Smith:** > > Today I am going to send the following hypothetical scenario to a reliable, trustable editor friend of mine . . . > > What if there was a person who might have some information that could possibly change the momentum of an election but we needed to get an ASAP book deal to help get us the information? What kinds of turnaround payment schedules are possible, keeping in mind the book probably could not make it out until after the election . . . . What I am asking is in this best case hypothetical scenario, can we get a decent sized advance payment, and get it turned around quickly. > > Then they will respond with some possible scenarios of what they could do. When we get to Burkett’s house I will have at least some scenarios to show Burkett about what could happen if he played ball with the documents. If he shows us what we want, then I can call my friend and tell him the real details and start the process. > > **Mapes:** “that looks good, hypothetically speaking, of course.” > [@](#): > > **Smith wrote in reply:** > > Just in case Burkett asks – let me make sure I have this right. This is our plan: If he shows us some leg, we are going to talk to him about his options in the following areas: 1) Security, 2) Publishing, 2A) (related topics of “taking care of him” with money) and 3) forcing Kerry campaign 62 to acknowledge his wisdom and strategic abilities . . . If his leg is sexy and useful then we are going to then do whatever it takes to help him in those areas. > **[CBS\_Report.pdf](https://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/complete_report/CBS_Report.pdf)** > > 687.27 KB ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/57 "2005-01-11T18:10:02Z")
Fascinating, though as I understand it not too terribly different from stuff that happens frequently in the media. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/58 "2005-01-11T20:50:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But, hey, don’t want to spoil yer party. Rock out, doesn’t look like you got much in the way of good news coming any time soon, so better get it while the gettings good. Only time will tell, but I feel like your frustration is just beginning, elucidator. It’s clear from the last election that people of your political persuasion are in the numerical minority. Bush was about as vulnerable as a Republican is going to get anytime soon. If he succeeds with tax or tort reform or gets credit for revamping the Social Security system and the economy stays on track, liberals are going to be locked out of the White House for a long time. Yes, it’s a lot of if’s…telling the future is an inexact science. And please don’t go down the class warfare scare tactic road about “raiding social security”. Something has to be done, and the party that does it and gets credit for it will have a major advantage. But with terrorism as a focus, the demographics of the population shifting south and west…etc…the Democrats are going to have to overcome a lot of obstacles to climb out of the hole they are in. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/59 "2005-01-11T21:21:19Z")
But don’t forget, George Bush has given the Democrats a gift that’s going keep on giving for many elections to come. After decades of envying Truman and Johnson, the Republicans finally have an Asian land war they can call their own. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087/60 "2005-01-11T21:40:57Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Only time will tell, but I feel like your frustration is just beginning, elucidator. It’s clear from the last election that people of your political persuasion are in the numerical minority. Polls taken since the election say otherwise. Ironically, they more or less match the exit polls that pointed to a loss for Bush. The since _vehemently discredited_ exit polls, but I digress… Don’t you love irony? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-verdict-is-in-and-cbs-is-indeed-guilty/284087.md?page=4)