# The very first war ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 26, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625 "2016-12-26T01:24:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/1 "2016-12-26T01:24:23Z")
I’ve been asking myself this : what is the earliest, scientifically authenticated instance of organized violence in human history ? I’m not talking about foundation myths like Troy or Biblical stuff (which may or may not have happened but haven’t left much in the way of _actual_ evidence), or stuff like cavemen graves found with the skulls caved in which, while they do indicate violence, do not necessarily exemplify what I think of a war - something that involves the whole of a nation/tribe/ethnic group ; is organized ; involves large-ish contingents ; isn’t restricted to gathering raids but has a political objective (even if that objective is, in essence, about resource taking, namely land)… That kind of stuff. Ideas ? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/2 "2016-12-26T02:04:57Z")
I consulted The Google and found this: > [@](#): > > The first war in recorded history took place in Mesopotamia in 2700 BCE between Sumer and Elam. The Sumerians, under command of the King of Kish, Enembaragesi, defeated the Elamites in this war and, it is recorded, “carried away as spoils the weapons of Elam.” At approximately the same time as this campaign, King Gilgamesh of Uruk marched on his neighbors in order to procure cedar for construction of a temple. While it has been argued that Gilgamesh is a mythological character, the archaeological evidence of a historical King Enembaragesi, who is mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh, lends weight to the claim that the latter was also a real historical figure. From The Ancient History Encyclopedia here: [War in Ancient Times - World History Encyclopedia](http://www.ancient.eu/war/) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/3 "2016-12-26T03:08:05Z")
That page also has this: > [@](#): > > Warfare certainly did not begin in 2700 BCE, however. The earliest pictographs of armies at war come from the kingdom of Kish, dated to about 3500 BCE. Jericho, which, along with Uruk, has a claim to the title of the world’s oldest city, has provided archaeologists with solid evidence that a fortified city stood on the site before 7000 BCE. The walls of the fortress were 10 feet (3 metres) thick and 13 feet (3.9 metres) high surrounded by a moat 30 feet (9.1 metres) wide and 10 feet (3 metres) deep. The simple bow was in use in Mesopotamia as early as 10,000 BCE and cemeteries from northern Mesopotamia to Egypt attest to early warfare on a fairly significant scale. Evidence from a conflict which took place at Jebel Sahaba, Egypt, at the so-called Site 117, 59 skeletons were uncovered, all of whom show clear evidence of violent death at about the same time. War in ancient Mesopotamia was waged by infantry shock troops until the introduction of the composite bow from Egypt. Whether the Homeric accounts are of a specific, real battle is doubtful, but the reality of wars between the Greeks and the Trojans is certain. Even so, they were 1500 years later than the Mesopotamian battles. Oodles of wars are known before Troy. Old Kingdom Egypt has military records that probably date as far back as Sumer. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/4 "2016-12-26T09:11:28Z")
Egypt and Sumer are mentioned, but that is probably because they had writing on clay/rock to be found now. Homo Homo appeared in Africa 150,000 years ago, Arabia 100,000 years ago and has been found to arrive in asia at least 50,000 years ago… writing is a very modern invention compared to war… its impossible to answer. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/5 "2016-12-26T11:58:03Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > Egypt and Sumer are mentioned, but that is probably because they had writing on clay/rock to be found now. > > Homo Homo appeared in Africa 150,000 years ago, Arabia 100,000 years ago and has been found to arrive in asia at least 50,000 years ago… > > writing is a very modern invention compared to war… its impossible to answer. True, but then again it gets dicey trying to ascertain facts without at least a written legend to go by. I suppose a given mass grave would be a hint towards a battle, but it could also be a hint to mass sacrifice, or a plague of some kind somebody decided to do something about, or an uprising gone wrong (or right, depending on the POV :))… I did know about the Uruk/Sumer/Elam thing (if only because that was what half a semester was about), but I wondered whether Asia or Africa had more to offer. The middle east does have the good combo of clay tablets and a weather that’s perfect for preserving it, but then again the same climate exists in the southern hemisphere, and further out east. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/6 "2016-12-26T15:42:06Z")
I don’t think you actually need to find records in writing to prove war existed. Digging up a fortified city is evidence enough. You don’t need fortifications if there are no wars. There is archaeological evidence that the city of [Jericho](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_wall) had a wall built around it as early as the 8th millenium BC. I’d say that’s the earliest indication we have of wars. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/7 "2016-12-26T16:06:37Z")
To stretch the OP’s definition of “warfare” all the way down to “inter-group violence”, there was a spectacular find from earlier this year. Basically, it appears that a few dozen people were massacred and dumped unceremoniously in a lake, around 10,000 years ago. Some were tied up, and others had pieces of stone weapons embedded in their bones. The NYT has a [good overview of the find](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/21/science/prehistoric-massacre-ancient-humans-lake-turkana-kenya.html). [The original paper](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v529/n7586/full/nature16477.html) is worth a read if you have access, it’s fairly short and even if you’re not familiar with all the technical details (like I am) even just the images and diagrams tell a vivid story. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2016, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/8 "2016-12-26T23:59:25Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > Egypt and Sumer are mentioned, but that is probably because they had writing on clay/rock to be found now. > > Homo Homo appeared in Africa 150,000 years ago, Arabia 100,000 years ago and has been found to arrive in asia at least 50,000 years ago… > > writing is a very modern invention compared to war… its impossible to answer. Since the OP was careful to ask “what is the earliest, scientifically authenticated instance of organized violence in human history” the question has to be answerable. Reading closely is part of science. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/9 "2016-12-27T06:52:56Z")
The Narmer Palette in the Cairo Museum dates to about the 31st century BC, and depicts Narmer smiting his enemies as he allegedly united upper and lower Egypt, and was most likely made at the time of the conquest. That’s about as specific and directly documented as you’re going to get. On one side Narmer is about to smite his enemy, on the other side there’s a pile of decapitated corpses… plus other details. > **[Narmer Palette](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narmer_Palette)** > > The Narmer Palette, also known as the Great Hierakonpolis Palette or the Palette of Narmer, is a significant Egyptian archaeological find, dating from about the 31st century BC, belonging, at least nominally, to the category of cosmetic palettes. It contains some of the earliest hieroglyphic inscriptions ever found. The tablet is thought by some to depict the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt under the king Narmer. Along with the Scorpion Macehead and the Narmer Maceheads, also found together ... ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/10 "2016-12-27T15:25:21Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The Narmer Palette in the Cairo Museum dates to about the 31st century BC, and depicts Narmer smiting his enemies as he allegedly united upper and lower Egypt, and was most likely made at the time of the conquest. That’s about as specific and directly documented as you’re going to get. On one side Narmer is about to smite his enemy, on the other side there’s a pile of decapitated corpses… plus other details. > > [Narmer Palette - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narmer_Palette) Well, maybe. From that same page: > [@](#): > > The Palette has raised considerable scholarly debate over the years. In general, the arguments fall into one of two camps: scholars who believe that the Palette is a record of actual events, and other academics who argue that it is an object designed to establish the mythology of united rule over Upper and Lower Egypt by the king. It had been thought that the Palette either depicted the unification of Lower Egypt by the king of Upper Egypt or recorded a recent military success over the Libyans[15] or the last stronghold of a Lower Egyptian dynasty based in Buto.[16] More recently, scholars such as Nicholas Millet have argued that the Palette does not represent a historical event (such as the unification of Egypt), but instead represents the events of the year in which the object was dedicated to the temple. Whitney Davis has suggested that the iconography on this and other pre-dynastic palettes has more to do with establishing the king as a visual metaphor of the conquering hunter caught in the moment of delivering a mortal blow to his enemies.[17] John Baines has suggested that the events portrayed are “tokens of royal achievement” from the past and that “the chief purpose of the piece is not to record an event but to assert that the king dominates the ordered world in the name of the gods and has defeated internal, and especially external, forces of disorder”.[18] ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/11 "2016-12-27T15:31:00Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Well, maybe. From that same page: Whether it documents the events of a single year, or is meant to depict the entire campaign to unite Upper and Lower Eygpt, or even is just metaphorical, it still indicates a war of some kind took place around that time. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/12 "2016-12-27T16:20:50Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Whether it documents the events of a single year, or is meant to depict the entire campaign to unite Upper and Lower Eygpt, or even is just metaphorical, it still indicates a war of some kind took place around that time. I’m not enough of a expert to agree or disagree. All I can note is that some of the scholars quoted do not interpret the Palette as indicating an actual war. Davis certainly and Baines possibly. The Ancient History Enycyclopedia, cited by engineer\_comp\_geek, has a page on [Early Dynastic Egypt](http://www.ancient.eu/Early_Dynastic_Period_In_Egypt/) which says: > [@](#): > > ``` > That Egypt was created through military means is a basic concept expressed in the art of the period. A sizeable set of stone objects, including cermonial mace-heads and palettes, contain scenes of war and fighting between men, between animals, and between men and animals.Whereas in the past Egyptologists read the scenes of war literally as records of actual events, today they prefer to see them as stereotypical statements of kingship and the king's legitimacy (33). > > ``` and also: > [@](#): > > Unification, Brewer (and others) claim was “most likely a slow process stimulated by economic growth” (142). Upper Egypt seems to have been more prosperous and their wealth enabled them to systematically absorb the lands of lower Egypt over time as they found they needed more resources for their population and for trade. Whether the king who united the country was Narmer or someone of another name, this king lay the foundation for the rise of one of the greatest civilizations of the ancient world. It’s hard to believe that nothing resembling war took place over this time. But if these interpretations are correct, then the Palette provides no evidence for war. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/13 "2016-12-27T16:48:32Z")
Amazingly, we have footage of the first battle: [- YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtbOmpTnyOc) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/14 "2016-12-27T17:53:25Z")
Between Homo Sapiens? Or between Homo Sapies and Neandrathals? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/15 "2016-12-27T19:41:23Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > Egypt and Sumer are mentioned, but that is probably because they had writing on clay/rock to be found now. > > Homo Homo appeared in Africa 150,000 years ago, Arabia 100,000 years ago and has been found to arrive in asia at least 50,000 years ago… > > writing is a very modern invention compared to war… its impossible to answer. Not true. The Op asked " what is the earliest, scientifically authenticated instance of organized violence in human history ?" Even if we dont know when the first “war” was (and what defines a "war’ as opposed to a battle as opposed to a raid as opposed to just two families duking it out?) we can know when the first _documented_ war was. engineer\_comp\_geek’s cite is a good one, as are others. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/16 "2016-12-28T17:47:13Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > To stretch the OP’s definition of “warfare” all the way down to “inter-group violence”, there was a spectacular find from earlier this year. Basically, it appears that a few dozen people were massacred and dumped unceremoniously in a lake, around 10,000 years ago. Some were tied up, and others had pieces of stone weapons embedded in their bones. > > The NYT has a [good overview of the find](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/21/science/prehistoric-massacre-ancient-humans-lake-turkana-kenya.html). [The original paper](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v529/n7586/full/nature16477.html) is worth a read if you have access, it’s fairly short and even if you’re not familiar with all the technical details (like I am) even just the images and diagrams tell a vivid story. That’s not good enough - could be a ritual sacrifice (especially if they were killed while tied up), or outlaws/criminals being dealt with, or a particularly bad winter… [QUOTE=aldiboronti] I don’t think you actually need to find records in writing to prove war existed. Digging up a fortified city is evidence enough. You don’t need fortifications if there are no wars. There is archaeological evidence that the city of [Jericho](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_wall) had a wall built around it as early as the 8th millenium BC. I’d say that’s the earliest indication we have of wars. [/QUOTE] Depends. Walls were also good against wild animals, a symbol of power and a way to mark the symbolic border between “bad dangerous Nature” and “good, safe civilization”. Most early art in fact puts a very strong symbolical emphasis on man being the subject, or victim, of the dangers of nature ; it’s only after a good long while of living with cities & with agriculture and such that art started representing man in a more dominant position wrt nature instead. [QUOTE=md2000] The Narmer Palette in the Cairo Museum dates to about the 31st century BC, and depicts Narmer smiting his enemies as he allegedly united upper and lower Egypt, and was most likely made at the time of the conquest. That’s about as specific and directly documented as you’re going to get. On one side Narmer is about to smite his enemy, on the other side there’s a pile of decapitated corpses… plus other details. > **[Narmer Palette](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narmer_Palette)** > > The Narmer Palette, also known as the Great Hierakonpolis Palette or the Palette of Narmer, is a significant Egyptian archaeological find, dating from about the 31st century BC, belonging, at least nominally, to the category of cosmetic palettes. It contains some of the earliest hieroglyphic inscriptions ever found. The tablet is thought by some to depict the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt under the king Narmer. Along with the Scorpion Macehead and the Narmer Maceheads, also found together ... [/QUOTE] That’s pretty good - even if it’s not a representation of a specific war, it still indicates that the \*concept \*of war existed and was understood as such. Notably, the palette not only represents the dead losers, but also standard bearers who appear to lead a prisoner (those do look like manacles above that character, don’t they ?). Standards are/were necessary for battlefield comms, so their presence would be indicative of a grasp of large scale tactics. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/17 "2016-12-28T17:58:40Z")
Yes, plus - the pose, big guy grabbing the prisoner/opponent by the hair on top of his head, about to strike him - that is how many other later pharaohs were depicted to commemorate their great wins. Plus, pile of dead bodies with severed heads is pretty standard. (There is however, a temple where one much later victory is celebrated in a wall carving, about 1700BC - the pharaoh is shown in front of a pile of hands. He paid his warriors a bounty for each right hand removed from a dead opponent. He then found some of his minions were double-dipping by tossing in a few left hands too. The next panel in the sequence shows him sitting in front of large pile of severed genitalia - to get the bounty, bring the opponent’s full package. ) As Wiki mentions, he is shown wearing the crowns of both upper and lower Egypt, and the general traditional history of Egypt says he was the one who united them - despite, one presumes, military opposition. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/18 "2016-12-28T18:21:56Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Yes, plus - the pose, big guy grabbing the prisoner/opponent by the hair on top of his head, about to strike him - that is how many other later pharaohs were depicted to commemorate their great wins. Yes, I’ve wondered if that “smite pose” for pharaohs is the longest running use of a specific pose in illustrations. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-very-first-war/775625/19 "2016-12-28T18:42:17Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Yes, I’ve wondered if that “smite pose” for pharaohs is the longest running use of a specific pose in illustrations. On the front pylon of the Edfu temple, one of the pharaohs is depicted as a serious badass, grabbing the hair and about to smite a plethora of enemies in one shot.