# The virtues of a $10/hour minimum wage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021 "2016-04-24T20:40:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/201 "2016-04-30T23:11:45Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I did read it. It’s political rhetoric. Then quote the parts you object to and give your explanations as to why it’s wrong. This is Great debates. Participate. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/202 "2016-05-01T02:41:48Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Then quote the parts you object to and give your explanations as to why it’s wrong. > This is Great debates. Participate. Quoting a hard leftist like Reich is not participating, its parroting. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/203 "2016-05-01T03:02:26Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Quoting a hard leftist like Reich is not participating, its parroting. Bullshit. Like I said, you quote the parts you wish to refute and provide your arguments. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/204 "2016-05-01T03:10:40Z")
Bullshit yourself. The person who quoted Reich needs to back up his or her argument. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/205 "2016-05-01T03:20:01Z")
I disagree with him because he’s a hard-left political hack because I disagree with him. The first rule of Tautology Club… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/206 "2016-05-01T03:22:09Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Quoting a hard leftist like Reich is not participating, its parroting. Accusing Reich of being a “hard leftist” is nothing more than even more extreme partisan rhetoric that means that we should simply dismiss your complaints and begin to ignore your posts until you choose to participate with facts and logic instead of groundless name calling. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/207 "2016-05-01T03:24:41Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Wrong. Isn’t quoting Reich “expounding partisan rhetoric?” Of course it is, whether you see it or not. Whether i see it or not? Nah. That is you just throwing up nonsense to avoid having to address the issues. If Reich is wrong, you should be able to explain why. Your tactics indicate that you have no actual rebuttal to his points. Perhaps you are simply afraid that his facts and logic are superior to yours. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/208 "2016-05-01T03:25:00Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Accusing Reich of being a “hard leftist” is nothing more than even more extreme partisan rhetoric that means that we should simply dismiss your complaints and begin to ignore your posts until you choose to participate with facts and logic instead of groundless name calling. Be serious Tom. Do you really think that Reich is neutral? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/209 "2016-05-01T03:28:12Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Be serious Tom. Do you really think that Reich is neutral? No ne said he was neutral. You have yet to explain why you think he’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/210 "2016-05-01T03:32:36Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > No ne said he was neutral. You have yet to explain why you think he’s wrong. No, you have to explain why you think he’s right. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/211 "2016-05-01T03:39:06Z")
Well, I personally believe that the “paid-what-your-worth” argument is fundamentally misleading because it ignores power, overlooks institutions, and disregards politics. As such, it lures the unsuspecting into thinking nothing whatever should be done to change what people are paid, because nothing can be done. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/212 "2016-05-01T03:43:16Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, you have to explain why you think he’s right. I was never arguing one way or the other. You dismissed the article out of hand and refuse to make an argument as to where he’s wrong and why you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/213 "2016-05-01T05:01:56Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Be serious Tom. Do you really think that Reich is neutral? Where did you dig up that red herring? The issue is not whether Reich is neutral or holds a political position. Over the years, I have both agreed with some of his positions and disagreed with others. In this discussion, you simply dismissed an article he wrote as if it could have no bearing on the topic with the utterly absurd claim that he was "hard left. Even Michael Harrington, someone who truly was “hard left,” was capable of making meaningful observations regarding economy and working people. To stand to the Right of someone as freakish as Ann Coulter or Glenn Beck and dismiss Reich as being “hard left” without addressing his actual observations is nothing more than running away from the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/214 "2016-05-01T15:11:38Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Bullshit yourself. The person who quoted Reich needs to back up his or her argument. I did, at length. You either ducked the arguments, dismissed them without addressing them, or moved the goalposts. I figured perhaps citing an very accomplished public figure pointing out the absurdity of your position might make you realize how foolish you are being. I guess I was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/215 "2016-05-01T15:17:42Z")
There are plenty of reasons to disagree with Reich based on the content. Simply disagreeing based on who he is seems pretty sloppy. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/216 "2016-05-01T23:43:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > To stand to the Right of someone as freakish as Ann Coulter or Glenn Beck and dismiss Reich as being “hard left” without addressing his actual observations is nothing more than running away from the discussion. So Ann Coulter and Glenn Beck are “freakish”, but Reich’s “observations” are valid? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/217 "2016-05-02T00:25:27Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > [The “Paid-What-You’re-Worth” Myth](http://robertreich.org/post/79512527145) I think a better response to this would be to request a summary of your link. A drive by link can be dismissed because there is no content. The only way to interpret what you are saying is that you are asserting that people are in fact not paid what they are worth. Except you didn’t quote anything from the article. It has nothing to do with Reich - and everything to do with the lack of content. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/218 "2016-05-02T02:29:37Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > So Ann Coulter and Glenn Beck are “freakish”, but Reich’s “observations” are valid? I noticed that also. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/219 "2016-05-02T02:44:39Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > So Ann Coulter and Glenn Beck are “freakish”, but Reich’s “observations” are valid? I have no idea whether Reich’s opinions ar “valid.” His are not, however, stupid, cruel, and based on ignorance and hatred in the manner routinely displayed by Coulter and Beck, both of whom routinely demonstrate ignorance and dishonesty in their statements. It would take a position to the Right of either of them to see Reich as belonging to the “hard left.” He is more likely centrist or slightly Left of center, but he is not “hard Left.” ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/220 "2016-05-02T04:23:06Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I have no idea whether Reich’s opinions ar “valid.” Let’s look at what was actually stated in the [linked Reich piece.](http://robertreich.org/post/79512527145) > [@](#): > > It’s often assumed that people are paid what they’re worth. According to this logic, minimum wage workers aren’t worth more than the $7.25 an hour they now receive. If they were worth more, they’d earn more. Any attempt to force employers to pay them more will only kill jobs. From the get go, Reich equivocates on people being paid what they are worth, and what people are worth. I don’t know if that’s intentional, but it’s distracting and not an accurate portrayal of the idea that he’s trying to combat. In addition, he gets the core of the saying wrong. It’s not that people are paid what they are worth, they are paid what the value of their work product is worth. Reich goes on to compare historical GM workers to current Walmart workers, and concludes that the reason both relatively low skilled folks are paid so much different in real terms is because of the decline of unions. Reich doesn’t talk about the disparity in alternatives for those workers at their respective times. No, it must simply be unions. Reich then switches gears to highly compensated CEOs and calls out a corporate subsidy with no support. He puts it out there as if it’s an established fact. He then ponders if this is because these folks make large political contributions. There is no actual evidence or connection, just…high paid CEOs are bad, and political contributions are bad. Right. Then, his conclusion: > [@](#): > > The “paid-what-your-worth” argument is fundamentally misleading because it ignores power, overlooks institutions, and disregards politics. As such, it lures the unsuspecting into thinking nothing whatever should be done to change what people are paid, because nothing can be done. I think Reich has a definitional problem. And it’s with the word “worth”. The fact that Reich doesn’t define how he’s using this term undercuts his entire premise. If I define “worth” as what a person is paid in a voluntary transaction, then Reich is wrong. He didn’t state how he’s using it, and it seems he’s using the term in some non-standard way. So, do you think his positions are valid? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021.md?page=12)