# The virtues of a $10/hour minimum wage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021 "2016-04-24T20:40:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/81 "2016-04-25T20:32:22Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The knee-jerk conservative retort that minimum wage is to some extent counter to sound economic principles is not completely wrong. I, for one, would not argue so strongly for minimum wage hikes if a good safety-net program were in place — perhaps a negative income tax or, as I argue in the other thread, government subsidies for healthcare, childcare, transportation, etc. > > Will the conservatives arguing in this thread agree to push for a negative income tax, or something similar? _If so, I proudly join you._ > > But if the political climate in U.S. is such that negative income tax, or expensive safety net (healthcare, etc.) is NOT on the table, then minimum wage hikes are, at worst, a least of evils and I condemn those who oppose them. We already have an expensive safety net. Regardless your position is incoherent. The lower the safety net the more vital a job is. If a minimum wage makes someone who would otherwise be employed unemployed than it hurts them less in a generous welfare state. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/82 "2016-04-25T20:36:38Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Which was his/her problem. Obviously if you make specific, general assumptions that don’t always exist in the real world, you can empirically verify a whole host of generally unsupportable sweeping statements. > > Lowering your costs via automation is always attractive regardless of the origin of the financial pressure. The issue is if the proposed cost increases via a higher minimum wage are enough of an incentive to automate in ways a given business wouldn’t otherwise. I don’t think there is clear cut evidence either way at $10/hour. Labor and automation are substitutes for each other. The marginal amount of automation purchased depends on the price of labor. The people making self serve ordering systems for fast food restaurants will sell a certain amount when labor is $10/ hour, more at $15/hr, and less at $3/hr. As long as the food gets ordered it doesn’t matter to corporate whether a cashier or a robot is doing it. However, it matters a whole lot to the cashier. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/83 "2016-04-25T20:38:06Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I disagree. Employers need a fixed amount of labor. Perhaps true in the short term, but not in the long term. Employers only need a fixed amount of labor until they figure out how to do more with less. When you give them a lot of incentive to do just that they will. Back in 1900 farming was the occupation for about 50% of the US population with many of those being hired hands, in other words employees. Now it is down to 2-3 % of the population and they are producing more product than ever. True enough it is a long period of time but the same concept will occur in a shorter term of 3-4-5 years or so. Go back to my fast food example. I googled it, there are 50,000 fast food restaurants in the US. Assuming each one has an increase of cost of 75,000 per year this means the industry as a whole will have an increase in cost of 3.75 billion per year. That is a lot of incentive for an industry to work on to downsize its employee footprint. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/84 "2016-04-25T20:59:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And what labor do you think does not provide $10/hour of value? Ushers. Busing tables at fast food joints. Toll collectors. People walking around bars selling peanuts and cigarettes. Sorting recycling from refuse. Wearing a sandwich board that says “Eat at Joe’s”. Hot dog carts. Bowling pin setters. Et cetera. Basically any job that people _used_ to do, that either machines do now, or that people are now expected to do themselves with no compensation (like pumping your own gas). Among many other jobs. Also, I think it’s a truism that someone who earns less than $10/hr is worth less than $10/hr. Or else they would be making more than $10/hr already. They aren’t because their skills and services are not worth it. This is not to comment on their value as a _person_. Only the value of the labor they are able to sell. Personally, I think a basic income is a far better solution to poverty than the minimum wage. The minimum wage is actively harmful. It wasn’t that long ago that kids were the only ones making minimum wage. Now we have heads of households trying to pay bills and raise a family on minimum wage, and the teenage unemployment rate is somewhere around 50%. I don’t think that’s progress. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/85 "2016-04-25T21:07:12Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Then it would seem that their problem is hours, not wages. How does raising the minimum wage solve that problem? I hear Bernie and others say “No one who works 40 hours a week should be living in poverty”, as an argument for increasing the MW. But nobody who makes minimum wage works 40 hours a week! You can’t even work two jobs to get those hours, because minimum wage jobs expect you to have 24/7 availability and will fire you if they call you at 6 to be there at 8 (for your four hour shift :rolleyes:), and you can’t show up because you’re busy working at your other job. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/86 "2016-04-25T21:18:46Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It’s a year when we had \>4 million fewer jobs than we do today. What does it mean to you? It’s a year we weren’t exactly flush with jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/87 "2016-04-25T21:22:06Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > Perhaps true in the short term, but not in the long term. Employers only need a fixed amount of labor until they figure out how to do more with less. When you give them a lot of incentive to do just that they will. Employers always need a fixed amount of labor, and that fixed amount is always “as little as possible”. You don’t need to increase the minimum wage as an incentive for employers to find ways to do more with less. They’re already doing it, and have been doing it for decades. A competent company will always be running as lean as possible wether minimum wage is $7.50 or $15. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/88 "2016-04-25T21:33:35Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > A competent company will always be running as lean as possible whether minimum wage is $7.50 or $15. But the pressures on employers are different in each case, as well as their alternatives. A machine that costs an amortized $10/hr to run is not a good alternative to a minimum wage employee when MW is $7.25. It is a great alternative when MW is $15. And the urgency of a company that wants to lower labor costs will be far higher in the $15/hr case than the $7.25/hr case. You’re right though, that in general, all corporations want to keep their costs down all the time, and won’t accept the status quo just because a particular costly law failed to pass. But the laws affect them just the same. ---
**Author:** ![ziper1221](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a183cd/32.png) [@ziper1221](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ziper1221)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/89 "2016-04-25T21:49:21Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Wearing a sandwich board that says “Eat at Joe’s” I always laugh when I think of this. That person is literally replaceable by a post in the ground. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/90 "2016-04-25T21:58:04Z")
> [@ziper1221](#): > > I always laugh when I think of this. That person is literally replaceable by a post in the ground. I think the idea is that you are not allowed to stick a billboard any place you feel like, but a guy in a stupid costume spinning a board with your business name on it can be anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/91 "2016-04-25T22:37:28Z")
> [@funky\_little\_lee](#): > > That’s pretty cruel. > > I’m in a skilled trade. I have 11 years in the trade. That’s 11 years of hard work and skills and knowledge that burger-flippers etc. don’t have. And one of the benefits of acquiring those skills is that you can make a half-decent living. Well, if the minimum wage gets raised to $15…I’ll be working for minimum wage. Do you think my employer is going to say, “Well, your skills are worth more than that, so we’re going to pay you $30 an hour now?” I doubt it. And then, when prices rise, I’ll be unable to keep up, or else I’ll be dis-employed because my employer can’t afford to keep me. So I will be driven to the bottom, even though I worked my ass off to get where I am now. It’s not cruel, it’s what grown ups refer to as “an awful truth”. As much as it stings, it’s still the truth. And your post was actually another argument against raising the minimum. Because this is what happens and it’s another reason why price increases eventually will take place. Once the minimum wage is raised past what you are making you’re going to push for higher wages, and so on. The left will always be chasing the dragon on the minimum wage. There will never be a time when the minimum wage is a decent enough amount for the times where people can live comfortably on it. It’s not supposed to be and jobs that pay that amount aren’t supposed to be career positions. They’re either starter jobs or stepping stones to better positions within the same employer. But the left has to chase that dragon because the majority of folks who work those jobs are a large constituency of the left, namely young people and adults who are failures. Another awful truth, don’t hate the messenger. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/92 "2016-04-26T02:51:40Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Lowering your costs via automation is always attractive regardless of the origin of the financial pressure. The issue is if the proposed cost increases via a higher minimum wage are enough of an incentive to automate in ways a given business wouldn’t otherwise. I don’t think there is clear cut evidence either way at $10/hour. Sure, but what I was getting at is when there’s a 33% increase in your labor costs overnight, companies start casting around for ways to decrease that with a whole lot more vigor than just trying to squeeze a little more profit out of an already profitable venture. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/93 "2016-04-26T03:26:47Z")
> [@](#): > > wages are frequently such a small part of the cost of goods sold or services provided that a $3 increase at the low end probably doesn’t make too many of my employees unprofitable propositions for me. I actually, wages are often the major costs of a company (75 to 90% of their expenses), and any increase in wages is a major problem. Why do you think companies are always looking into automation or overseas options? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/94 "2016-04-26T13:53:44Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > actually, wages are often the major costs of a company (75 to 90% of their expenses), Good lord, I certainly hope not. Certainly this is never the case in the hospitality and food service industries. Gotta cite? > [@](#): > > and any increase in wages is a major problem. Why do you think companies are always looking into automation or overseas options? For the same reason they are always looking into cheaper inventory and more efficient SCM. Because labor is a cost, and we want to find ways to reduce costs. Certainly businesses do not _only_ seek to lower labor costs; it’s one of many. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/95 "2016-04-26T14:03:40Z")
Yeah no that can’t be right. IIRC fast food is like 25%, but that was based on a report by the fast food industry. I’ll see if I can dig that up. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/96 "2016-04-26T14:14:06Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Yeah no that can’t be right. IIRC fast food is like 25%, but that was based on a report by the fast food industry. I’ll see if I can dig that up. Per the National Restaurant Association ([reported in the Houston Chronicle](http://smallbusiness.chron.com/average-profit-margin-restaurant-13477.html)), full service runs about 1/3 on labor, limited-service a hair under 30%. That was as of 2010, but I can’t imagine it’s changed much. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/97 "2016-04-26T14:27:57Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Per the National Restaurant Association ([reported in the Houston Chronicle](http://smallbusiness.chron.com/average-profit-margin-restaurant-13477.html)), full service runs about 1/3 on labor, limited-service a hair under 30%. That was as of 2010, but I can’t imagine it’s changed much. That’s the report. It’s paywalled, so thanks for the link to the summary. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/98 "2016-04-26T14:35:52Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Ushers. Busing tables at fast food joints. Toll collectors. People walking around bars selling peanuts and cigarettes. Sorting recycling from refuse. Wearing a sandwich board that says “Eat at Joe’s”. Hot dog carts. Bowling pin setters. Et cetera. > > Basically any job that people _used_ to do, that either machines do now, or that people are now expected to do themselves with no compensation (like pumping your own gas). Among many other jobs. > > Also, I think it’s a truism that someone who earns less than $10/hr is worth less than $10/hr. Or else they would be making more than $10/hr already. They aren’t because their skills and services are not worth it. This is not to comment on their value as a _person_. Only the value of the labor they are able to sell. You are assuming that labor markets are efficient. I don’t think many economists really believe that. The reason those jobs that are not worth $10 anymore is because there are machines that do it. They didn’t invent machines to do it because the work was worth less than $10/hour. The notion that things are not worth $10 because we can do it ourselves is pretty ridiculous. The fact that we bus our own trays at McDonalds doesn’t mean that bussing tables is worth less than $10/hour. > [@](#): > > Personally, I think a basic income is a far better solution to poverty than the minimum wage. The minimum wage is actively harmful. It wasn’t that long ago that kids were the only ones making minimum wage. Now we have heads of households trying to pay bills and raise a family on minimum wage, and the teenage unemployment rate is somewhere around 50%. I don’t think that’s progress. The existence of the minimum wage did not create a situation where heads of households are making minimum wage. Sure, I agree that a basic income is better than a minimum wage but a minimum wage is politically feasible because it doesn’t require an increase in taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/99 "2016-04-26T15:53:15Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > a large constituency of the left, namely . . . \ . . . adults who are failures. Another awful truth, don’t hate the messenger. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021/100 "2016-04-26T16:00:37Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > The left will always be chasing the dragon on the minimum wage. There will never be a time when the minimum wage is a decent enough amount for the times where people can live comfortably on it. It’s not supposed to be and jobs that pay that amount aren’t supposed to be career positions. They’re either starter jobs or stepping stones to better positions within the same employer. I disagree with the notion that minimum wage living is supposed to be _comfortable_. It should, however, be _survivable_. When I was just out of college earning then-minimum wage I could afford a single-room apartment, pay my utilities (electric/gas/phone), transportation costs, afford a frugal but nourishing diet, AND pay off my student loans (which were considerably less than kids leave college with today). It required a lot of budgeting and few to no luxuries, but I had a safe place to sleep and put my stuff, and I could feed and clothe myself adequately if not fashionably. In the nation’s second largest city. There are many places in the country now where you _can’t_ do that on minimum wage, you can’t even afford a one-room apartment (if you can even find one) on that wage, much less pay for the other essentials. That’s a problem, and it lead to people _becoming_ failures because even if they diligently work full time they still can’t care for themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-virtues-of-a-10-hour-minimum-wage/753021.md?page=6)